[TRNSYS-users] PID controller in TRNSYS developer
wangyang
yang.wang at unibw.de
Wed Nov 16 04:00:20 PST 2011
Dear marcello.caciolo,
Many thanks for your quick reply!
I know and understand all what you explained. Since my profession for
Bachelor and Master is Automation control. That is also the reason why I
suspect the function of PID controller in TRNSYS. As you said, I tried many
time the gain Kp and integral time Ki and small time step 1 min or smaller
in order to avoid oscillations, a large difference between the set point
1000 ppm and actual CO2 concentration etc.
I mentioned already as my first email about PID controller: I set the set
point CO2 concentration 1000 ppm as PID controller's set point; its control
signal links to Opening Factor (OF) of windows; indoor CO2 concentration
links to PID's controlled variable. However, when indoor CO2 concentration
is less than set point 1000 ppm, PID begins to activate OF i.e. windows are
open. Based on PID principle, control signal should be set to zero. BUT it
is not like this. As we know, if CO2 concentration is not getting to set
point 1000 ppm, at this time windows are open will result in the ERROR
(between the set point and actual indoor CO2 concentration) increasing. So
I'm puzzled! So I suspect the function of PID controller in TRNSYS.
****
Now, I only would like a solution for this problem as I said in recent
emails and the adequate explanations for this OF_CO2 concentration_PID
control issue in TRNSYS .****
****
****
Many thanks in advance!****
****
br****
****
wang****
2011/11/16 <marcello.caciolo at aximaseitha-gdfsuez.com>
> Dear Wang,****
>
> ** **
>
> I find that your problem description is not very clear, but I try anyway
> to guess what you want to do.****
>
> ** **
>
> In my understanding, if you want CO2 concentration to be less than 1000
> ppm, you should use a PID control with a positive gain and an output signal
> between 0 and 1, directly connected to the OF. In this way, if the CO2
> concentration is less than 1000 ppm, the error (and integral and derivative
> part of the signal, if present) of the PID control will be negative, so
> that control signal is set to zero. On the other hand, when CO2
> concentration is above 1000 ppm, the error is positive and the output
> signal will be more than 0, so opening the window. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Take care to the choice of the gain of the PID: a too high value could
> generate oscillations, while a value too low will lead to a large
> difference between actual and setpoint CO2 concentration. Also note that,
> without an integral part, the PID control is purely proportional and will
> always lead to a CO2 concentration higher than 1000 ppm. However, the
> integral time should be high enough to prevent oscillations. The time
> period should be also short enough in order to avoid instabilities in
> control.****
>
> ** **
>
> Guessing a good value of the gain and the integral time of a PID needs to
> wall understand the main principles of a proportional and integral
> controller. I suggest you to have a look to some textbooks about HVAC
> control in order to understand these principles.****
>
> ** **
>
> I hope that these explanation will help you.****
>
> ** **
>
> Best regards,****
>
> *Marcello CACIOLO*
> Responsable Outils et Méthodes d'Analyse Energétique
> ___________________________________________________
>
> [image: logo AximaSeitha]
> *
> **Cellule Efficacité Energétique***
>
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> 44000 Nantes Cédex 2
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>
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>
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>
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> *De :* trnsys-users-bounces at cae.wisc.edu [mailto:
> trnsys-users-bounces at cae.wisc.edu] *De la part de* wangyang
> *Envoyé :* mercredi 16 novembre 2011 10:53
> *À :* David BRADLEY; trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu; hotline at transsolar.com
> *Objet :* Re: [TRNSYS-users] PID controller in TRNSYS developer****
>
> ** **
>
> Dear David,****
>
> ****
>
> As I said yesterday, I linked PID's output Control Signal to a minus 1
> then to OF. The results are still very *WEIRD. *OF becomes minus value
> which is not reasonable very much i.e. the window is open towards abnormal
> direction; CO2 concentration is not decreasing as we hoped, however, it is
> becoming much more bigger e.g. 4000 ppm.****
>
> ****
>
> Now, I only would like a solution for this problem as I said in last email
> and the adequate explanations for this OF_CO2 concentration_PID control
> issue.****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> Many thanks in advance!****
>
> ****
>
> br****
>
> ****
>
> wang****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> 2011/11/15 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>****
>
> Dear David,****
>
> ****
>
> Many thanks for your reply!****
>
> ****
>
> I already saw both of them as you mentioned, however, they are not helpful
> for my simulation results i.e. they don't explain the things I wanted.****
>
> ****
>
> Your heating/cooling example is very vivid. Do you mean I need add an
> equation after the PID i.e. link PID's output Control Signal to a minus 1
> then to OF? ****
>
> ****
>
> Now, I only would like a solution for this problem as I said in last email
> and the adequate explanations for this OF_CO2 concentration_PID control
> issue.****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> Many thanks in advance!****
>
> ****
>
> br****
>
> ****
>
> wang****
>
> ****
>
>
> ****
>
> 2011/11/14 David BRADLEY <d.bradley at tess-inc.com>****
>
> Wang,
> You should already have the source code for the PID controller in
> ..\TrnsysXX\SourceCode\Types\. I would also recommend reading the Type23
> section of the 04-MathematicalDescription manual.
>
> PID controllers can operate in one of two ways: they can generate a
> greater signal value if the sampled input value is below the set point or
> they can generate a greater signal value if the sampled input is above the
> current set point. Imagine a heating application with a PID controller. As
> the zone temperature falls, you want the PID to give you a bigger and
> bigger signal. Now imagine a cooling application. As the zone temperature
> rises, you want the PID to give you a bigger and bigger signal. You may
> have to add an equation after the PID to invert its control signal if it is
> acting the opposite of the way that you want.
>
> David ****
>
>
>
> On 11/14/2011 04:28, wangyang wrote: ****
>
> Dear all,****
>
> ****
>
> I have a question about PID controller in TRNSYS for its developer.***
> *
>
> ****
>
> Which expert knows PID controller in TRNSYS developer? Or Which expert
> could pass me the source code of PID controller or its internal algorithm
> etc.? I guess PID controller in TRNSYS is based on empirical equation or
> iterative algorithm. Since there is *very weird* simulation results i.e.
> I set the set point CO2 concentration 1000 ppm as PID controller's set
> point; its control signal links to Opening Factor (OF) of windows; indoor
> CO2 concentration links to PID's controlled variable. However, when indoor
> CO2 concentration is less than set point 1000 ppm, PID begins to activate
> OF i.e. windows are open. But based on PID principle, as we know, if CO2
> concentration is not getting to set point 1000 ppm, at this time windows
> are open will result in *the ERROR* (between the set point and actual
> indoor CO2 concentration)* increasing. *So I'm puzzled! Please PID
> controller in TRNSYS developer or other experts explain this weird
> phenomenon!****
>
> Many thanks in advance!****
>
> ****
>
> br****
>
> ****
>
> wang****
>
> ** **
>
> 2011/11/12 <trnsys-users-request at cae.wisc.edu>****
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: (no subject) (David BRADLEY)
> 2. Re: TRNSYS3D Shading on Walls? (David BRADLEY)
> 3. Re: how to identify a wall that is adjacent two walls
> (David BRADLEY)
> 4. Error in reading type 51 external performance File
> (Walif M'kacher)
>
>
> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
> From: David BRADLEY <d.bradley at tess-inc.com>
> To: Erik Boschek <erikboschek at yahoo.com>
> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:01:47 -0600
> Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] (no subject)****
>
> Erik,
> You are right on with all three of your points. For reference, we
> discontinued use of Type109 in Trnsys17 in favor of option 2 (Type15),
> which is correct from an energy perspective even though it isn't a smooth
> curve. In gernal think that a control strategy that relies only on the
> instantaneous DNI as its input might run into trouble not only in
> simulation but also in the real world; clouds pass in front of the sun
> rapidly sometimes. While I won't pretend that the "spiky" profile that
> Type15 generates is totally realistic, I think it is a fairly accurate
> representation of DNI. Bear in mind that Type15 is trying to reconstruct a
> minute by minute radiation profile based only on 1 number and to do so
> correctly for all possible climate types. You might consider a control
> strategy that uses the output of Type15 but put through a running-average
> component so that your control decisions are based on a somewhat more
> stable (smoother) profile.
> Best,
> David
>
>
> On 11/11/2011 00:32, Erik Boschek wrote: ****
>
> ** **
>
> Dear TRNSYS users,****
>
> ** **
>
> I have a simple question regarding weather reading and interpolating
> direct normal radiation (DNI) values for time steps less than an hour.****
>
> ** **
>
> As long as I have been using TRNSYS (using TRNSYS 16.1) I have understood
> this can be done in a few ways as follows, including the consequence for an
> example TM2 file (see attached screen shot for clarification):****
>
> ** **
>
> 1.) Do not interpolate, using Type 15 with output DNR (not interpolated):
> you end up with a "steppy" profile****
>
> 2.) Using Type 15, but with 2-axis tracking and the output "Beam radiation
> for surface": you get a discontinuous "spikey" profile, but the integration
> of energy across the hour is respected****
>
> 3.) Same as 2, but using Type109-TMY2: You get a smooth profile, but often
> there appear inexplicable spikes at the beginning or end of the day. The
> one in the plot obviously is an extreme case.****
>
> ** **
>
> For reference: I just used the Daggett profile "US-CA-Daggett-23161.tm2"
> which came with TRNSYS, but the behavior is not specific to this file.****
>
> ** **
>
> Generally, I have been using 2, but it can cause problems if there is, for
> example, some triggering function based on DNI and the DNI hovers around
> the threshold. Is there another option for getting a smoother profile or is
> it best just to not interpolate? Any opinions? Feel free to point me to an
> earlier post on this topic in case I missed it.****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks,****
>
> ** **
>
> Erik Boschek****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________****
>
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>
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>
>
> ****
>
> -- ****
>
> *******************************
>
> David BRADLEY****
>
> Principal****
>
> Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC****
>
> 22 North Carroll Street - suite 370****
>
> Madison, WI 53703 USA****
>
> ** **
>
> P:+1.608.274.2577****
>
> F:+1.608.278.1475****
>
> d.bradley at tess-inc.com****
>
> ** **
>
> http://www.tess-inc.com****
>
> http://www.trnsys.com****
>
>
>
> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
> From: David BRADLEY <d.bradley at tess-inc.com>
> To: Marion Hiller <hiller at transsolar.com>
> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:03:16 -0600
> Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] TRNSYS3D Shading on Walls?
> TRNSYS-users,
> My apologies; my reply to Graham was incorrect; as Marion says, only the
> windows are affected.
> Kind regards,
> David
>
>
> On 11/11/2011 01:33, Marion Hiller wrote:****
>
> Graham,
>
> the shading defined in Trnsys3D effects only windows.
>
> Marion
>
> Dipl.-Ing. Marion Hiller
> TRANSSOLAR: KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen
> und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäude
> Munich - New York - Stuttgart + 49.711.67976.0
>
> Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart
> Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347, Steuernummer 99073/00911, USt-IdNr.:
> DE152272639
> Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer,
> Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Dipl.-Ing. Bleicher
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Graham Linn [mailto:grahamjlinn at gmail.com]
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. November 2011 21:49
> An: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
> Betreff: [TRNSYS-users] TRNSYS3D Shading on Walls?
>
> Hello TRNSYS users,
>
> I have a question about shading in TRNSYS3D. Does a shading object
> affect how much insolation hits the entire building or just the
> windows on the building?
>
> Thank you!
> Graham
> _______________________________________________
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> ****
>
>
> --
> ***************************
> David BRADLEY
> Principal
> Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
> 22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
> Madison, WI 53703 USA
>
> P:+1.608.274.2577
> F:+1.608.278.1475
> d.bradley at tess-inc.com
>
> http://www.tess-inc.com
> http://www.trnsys.com
>
>
>
>
> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
> From: David BRADLEY <d.bradley at tess-inc.com>
> To: Nidal Abdalla <nidalabdalla at yahoo.com>
> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:29:48 -0600
> Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] how to identify a wall that is adjacent two
> walls****
>
> Nidal,
> You have to be a little careful here. If you have a wall in zone 1, half
> of which is adjacent to zone 2 and half of which is adjacent to zone 3, you
> actually need to draw the wall as two walls in zone 1. Trnsys3D requires
> the user to be quite vigilant about manually setting adjacencies. You need
> to draw the ADJACENT wall in both zones and you need to open the object
> window for each of them, set the construction to ADJ_WALL, set the "outside
> boundary condition" to "Zone" and then manually select the zone to which it
> is adjacent in the "outside boundary object" field.
>
> If you have been very careful about drawing your ADJACENT walls so that
> they have exactly the same verticies in both zones to which they belong,
> you can then select the menu item: Plugins: Trnsys3d: Surface Matching and
> click the "match in entire model" button.
>
> Kind regards,
> David
>
>
> On 11/11/2011 08:32, Nidal Abdalla wrote: ****
>
> I drew a house using Trnsys3d that consists of: 3 bed rooms, living room,
> guest room and bath . The house was divided into 6 zones. Wall_zone5, for
> example, is adjacent two walls for two different zones. I am wondering how
> to identify a wall (using Object Info) that is adjacent two or more walls
> of diff. zones.****
>
> ****
>
> Best Regards****
>
> ****
>
> Nidal Abdalla****
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________****
>
> TRNSYS-users mailing list****
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>
>
> ****
>
> -- ****
>
> *******************************
>
> David BRADLEY****
>
> Principal****
>
> Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC****
>
> 22 North Carroll Street - suite 370****
>
> Madison, WI 53703 USA****
>
> ** **
>
> P:+1.608.274.2577****
>
> F:+1.608.278.1475****
>
> d.bradley at tess-inc.com****
>
> ** **
>
> http://www.tess-inc.com****
>
> http://www.trnsys.com****
>
>
>
> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
> From: "Walif M'kacher" <walif.mkacher at gmail.com>
> To: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:13:05 +0100
> Subject: [TRNSYS-users] Error in reading type 51 external performance File
> ****
>
> Dear TRNSys Users,****
>
> ****
>
> I have a problem with external file of type 51a (cooling tower with an
> external performance File):****
>
> ** **
>
> That the simulation with this type causes error and this can't read this
> external file (.txt)****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Would you please help me how to correct the file joined or send me a truth
> format of this .txt file****
>
> ** **
>
> ****
>
> Many thanks in advance****
>
> ****
>
> *Mkacher Walif*****
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> ****
>
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>
>
>
> ****
>
> -- ****
>
> *******************************
>
> David BRADLEY****
>
> Principal****
>
> Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC****
>
> 22 North Carroll Street - suite 370****
>
> Madison, WI 53703 USA****
>
> ** **
>
> P:+1.608.274.2577****
>
> F:+1.608.278.1475****
>
> d.bradley at tess-inc.com****
>
> ** **
>
> http://www.tess-inc.com****
>
> http://www.trnsys.com****
>
> ** **
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