[TRNSYS-users] PID controller in TRNSYS developer

wangyang yang.wang at unibw.de
Wed Nov 16 01:53:00 PST 2011


Dear David,

As I said yesterday, I linked PID's output Control Signal to a minus 1 then
to OF. The results are still very *WEIRD. *OF becomes minus value which is
not reasonable very much i.e. the window is open towards abnormal
direction; CO2 concentration is not decreasing as we hoped, however, it is
becoming much more bigger e.g. 4000 ppm.

 Now, I only would like a solution for this problem as I said in last email
and the adequate explanations for this OF_CO2 concentration_PID control
issue.


Many thanks in advance!

br

wang


2011/11/15 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>

> Dear David,
>
> Many thanks for your reply!
>
> I already saw both of them as you mentioned, however, they are not helpful
> for my simulation results i.e. they don't explain the things I wanted.
>
> Your heating/cooling example is very vivid. Do you mean I need add an
> equation after the PID i.e. link PID's output Control Signal to a minus 1
> then to OF?
>
> Now, I only would like a solution for this problem as I said in last email
> and the adequate explanations for this OF_CO2 concentration_PID control
> issue.
>
>
> Many thanks in advance!
>
> br
>
> wang
>
>
>
>   2011/11/14 David BRADLEY <d.bradley at tess-inc.com>
>
>> Wang,
>>   You should already have the source code for the PID controller in
>> ..\TrnsysXX\SourceCode\Types\. I would also recommend reading the Type23
>> section of the 04-MathematicalDescription manual.
>>
>>   PID controllers can operate in one of two ways: they can generate a
>> greater signal value if the sampled input value is below the set point or
>> they can generate a greater signal value if the sampled input is above the
>> current set point. Imagine a heating application with a PID controller. As
>> the zone temperature falls, you want the PID to give you a bigger and
>> bigger signal. Now imagine a cooling application. As the zone temperature
>> rises, you want the PID to give you a bigger and bigger signal. You may
>> have to add an equation after the PID to invert its control signal if it is
>> acting the opposite of the way that you want.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> On 11/14/2011 04:28, wangyang wrote:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>>     I have a question about PID controller in TRNSYS for its developer.
>>
>>     Which expert knows PID controller in TRNSYS developer? Or Which
>> expert could pass me the source code of PID controller or its internal
>> algorithm etc.? I guess PID controller in TRNSYS is based on empirical
>> equation or iterative algorithm. Since there is *very weird* simulation
>> results i.e. I set the set point CO2 concentration 1000 ppm as PID
>> controller's set point; its control signal links to Opening Factor (OF) of
>> windows; indoor CO2 concentration links to PID's controlled variable.
>> However, when indoor CO2 concentration is less than set point 1000 ppm, PID
>> begins to activate OF i.e. windows are open. But based on PID principle, as
>> we know, if CO2 concentration is not getting to set point 1000 ppm, at this
>> time windows are open will result in *the ERROR* (between the set point
>> and actual indoor CO2 concentration)* increasing. *So I'm puzzled!
>> Please PID controller in TRNSYS developer or other experts explain this
>> weird phenomenon!
>>    Many thanks in advance!
>>
>>    br
>>
>>    wang
>>
>>
>> 2011/11/12 <trnsys-users-request at cae.wisc.edu>
>>
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>>>
>>>   1. Re: (no subject) (David BRADLEY)
>>>   2. Re: TRNSYS3D Shading on Walls? (David BRADLEY)
>>>   3. Re: how to identify a wall that is adjacent two walls
>>>      (David BRADLEY)
>>>   4. Error in reading type 51 external performance File
>>>      (Walif M'kacher)
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
>>> From: David BRADLEY <d.bradley at tess-inc.com>
>>> To: Erik Boschek <erikboschek at yahoo.com>
>>> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:01:47 -0600
>>> Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] (no subject)
>>> Erik,
>>>  You are right on with all three of your points. For reference, we
>>> discontinued use of Type109 in Trnsys17 in favor of option 2 (Type15),
>>> which is correct from an energy perspective even though it isn't a smooth
>>> curve. In gernal think that a control strategy that relies only on the
>>> instantaneous DNI as its input might run into trouble not only in
>>> simulation but also in the real world; clouds pass in front of the sun
>>> rapidly sometimes. While I won't pretend that the "spiky" profile that
>>> Type15 generates is totally realistic, I think it is a fairly accurate
>>> representation of DNI. Bear in mind that Type15 is trying to reconstruct a
>>> minute by minute radiation profile based only on 1 number and to do so
>>> correctly for all possible climate types. You might consider a control
>>> strategy that uses the output of Type15 but put through a running-average
>>> component so that your control decisions are based on a somewhat more
>>> stable (smoother) profile.
>>> Best,
>>>  David
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/11/2011 00:32, Erik Boschek wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear TRNSYS users,
>>>
>>> I have a simple question regarding weather reading and interpolating
>>> direct normal radiation (DNI) values for time steps less than an hour.
>>>
>>> As long as I have been using TRNSYS (using TRNSYS 16.1) I have
>>> understood this can be done in a few ways as follows, including the
>>> consequence for an example TM2 file (see attached screen shot for
>>> clarification):
>>>
>>> 1.) Do not interpolate, using Type 15 with output DNR (not
>>> interpolated): you end up with a "steppy" profile
>>> 2.) Using Type 15, but with 2-axis tracking and the output "Beam
>>> radiation for surface": you get a discontinuous "spikey" profile, but the
>>> integration of energy across the hour is respected
>>> 3.) Same as 2, but using Type109-TMY2: You get a smooth profile, but
>>> often there appear inexplicable spikes at the beginning or end of the day.
>>> The one in the plot obviously is an extreme case.
>>>
>>> For reference: I just used the Daggett profile "US-CA-Daggett-23161.tm2"
>>> which came with TRNSYS, but the behavior is not specific to this file.
>>>
>>> Generally, I have been using 2, but it can cause problems if there is,
>>> for example, some triggering function based on DNI and the DNI hovers
>>> around the threshold. Is there another option for getting a smoother
>>> profile or is it best just to not interpolate? Any opinions? Feel free to
>>> point me to an earlier post on this topic in case I missed it.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Erik Boschek
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TRNSYS-users mailing listTRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.eduhttps://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ***************************
>>> David BRADLEY
>>> Principal
>>> Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
>>> 22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
>>> Madison, WI  53703 USA
>>>
>>> P:+1.608.274.2577
>>> F:+1.608.278.1475d.bradley at tess-inc.com
>>> http://www.tess-inc.comhttp://www.trnsys.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
>>> From: David BRADLEY <d.bradley at tess-inc.com>
>>> To: Marion Hiller <hiller at transsolar.com>
>>> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:03:16 -0600
>>> Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] TRNSYS3D Shading on Walls?
>>> TRNSYS-users,
>>>  My apologies; my reply to Graham was incorrect; as Marion says, only
>>> the windows are affected.
>>> Kind regards,
>>>  David
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/11/2011 01:33, Marion Hiller wrote:
>>>
>>>> Graham,
>>>>
>>>> the shading defined in Trnsys3D effects only windows.
>>>>
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>> Dipl.-Ing. Marion Hiller
>>>> TRANSSOLAR: KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen
>>>> und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäude
>>>> Munich - New York - Stuttgart + 49.711.67976.0
>>>>
>>>> Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart
>>>> Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347, Steuernummer 99073/00911, USt-IdNr.:
>>>> DE152272639
>>>> Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer,
>>>> Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Dipl.-Ing. Bleicher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>> Von: Graham Linn [mailto:grahamjlinn at gmail.com]
>>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. November 2011 21:49
>>>> An: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>>> Betreff: [TRNSYS-users] TRNSYS3D Shading on Walls?
>>>>
>>>> Hello TRNSYS users,
>>>>
>>>> I have a question about shading in TRNSYS3D. Does a shading object
>>>> affect how much insolation hits the entire building or just the
>>>> windows on the building?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you!
>>>> Graham
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TRNSYS-users mailing list
>>>> TRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>>> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> ***************************
>>> David BRADLEY
>>> Principal
>>> Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
>>> 22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
>>> Madison, WI  53703 USA
>>>
>>> P:+1.608.274.2577
>>> F:+1.608.278.1475
>>> d.bradley at tess-inc.com
>>>
>>> http://www.tess-inc.com
>>> http://www.trnsys.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
>>> From: David BRADLEY <d.bradley at tess-inc.com>
>>> To: Nidal Abdalla <nidalabdalla at yahoo.com>
>>> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:29:48 -0600
>>> Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] how to identify a wall that is adjacent two
>>> walls
>>> Nidal,
>>>   You have to be a little careful here. If you have a wall in zone 1,
>>> half of which is adjacent to zone 2 and half of which is adjacent to zone
>>> 3, you actually need to draw the wall as two walls in zone 1. Trnsys3D
>>> requires the user to be quite vigilant about manually setting adjacencies.
>>> You need to draw the ADJACENT wall in both zones and you need to open the
>>> object window for each of them, set the construction to ADJ_WALL, set the
>>> "outside boundary condition" to "Zone" and then manually select the zone to
>>> which it is adjacent in the "outside boundary object" field.
>>>
>>>   If you have been very careful about drawing your ADJACENT walls so
>>> that they have exactly the same verticies in both zones to which they
>>> belong, you can then select the menu item:  Plugins: Trnsys3d: Surface
>>> Matching and click the "match in entire model" button.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>  David
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/11/2011 08:32, Nidal Abdalla wrote:
>>>
>>>  I drew a house using Trnsys3d that consists of: 3 bed rooms, living
>>> room, guest room and bath . The house was divided into 6 zones. Wall_zone5,
>>> for example, is adjacent two walls for two different zones. I am wondering
>>> how to identify a wall (using Object Info) that is adjacent two or more
>>> walls of diff. zones.
>>>
>>> Best Regards
>>>
>>> Nidal Abdalla
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TRNSYS-users mailing listTRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.eduhttps://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ***************************
>>> David BRADLEY
>>> Principal
>>> Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
>>> 22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
>>> Madison, WI  53703 USA
>>>
>>> P:+1.608.274.2577
>>> F:+1.608.278.1475d.bradley at tess-inc.com
>>> http://www.tess-inc.comhttp://www.trnsys.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
>>> From: "Walif M'kacher" <walif.mkacher at gmail.com>
>>> To: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:13:05 +0100
>>> Subject: [TRNSYS-users] Error in reading type 51 external performance
>>> File
>>>
>>> Dear TRNSys Users,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a problem with external file of type 51a (cooling tower with an
>>> external performance File):
>>>
>>>
>>> That the simulation with this type causes error and this can't read this
>>> external file (.txt)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Would you please help me how to correct the file joined or send me a
>>> truth format of this .txt file
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Many thanks in advance
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Mkacher Walif*
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TRNSYS-users mailing list
>>> TRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TRNSYS-users mailing listTRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.eduhttps://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>>
>>
>> --
>> ***************************
>> David BRADLEY
>> Principal
>> Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
>> 22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
>> Madison, WI  53703 USA
>>
>> P:+1.608.274.2577
>> F:+1.608.278.1475d.bradley at tess-inc.com
>> http://www.tess-inc.comhttp://www.trnsys.com
>>
>>
>
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