[TRNSYS-users] there are some questions about TRNFLOW 's TEST DATA thanks!
David BRADLEY
d.bradley at tess-inc.com
Wed Mar 2 07:28:46 PST 2011
Wang,
If your questions are not being answered on this user forum, they
should be directed to the distributor from whom you purchased TRNFlow.
Regards,
David
On 3/2/2011 07:41, 王洋 wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I have some questions about TRNFLOW 's TEST DATA:
>
>
>
> To "test data" : :
>
> 1. I defined "test data", I defined initial CO2% as 1000 ppm(0.00164
> kg/kg) in the test room in TRNFlow, and I defined the ambient CO2% as
> 400 ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg). But after running, the ambient CO2% as 400
> ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg) doesn't work, the indoor CO2% reduce beyond 400
> ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg) and up to 6.00E-10kg/kg, i think the air flow
> rate in test data works all the time, the ambient CO2% as 400
> ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg) doesn't work.
> So I defined an Equation in simulation studio: when CONZ(the indoor
> CO2% )<0.00065726, air flow factor is 0. What's the meaning of air
> flow factor?
> I think the above problem's reason is air flow factor(1) works all
> the time. Is my thought right or not? Please see the ATTACHED 1st and
> 2nd. Please have a look at my programs whether are they right or not?
> If not please correct them. thanks!
>
>
>
> But after running, I found CO2% reducing rate of the curve is very
> faster than my actual measurement in the test room. Please see the
> ATTACTED 3rd and 4th. To 3rd you can see only about 2 hours the CO2%
> got to 400 ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg), but to 4th the actual measurement
> curve in the test room: it needs about 10 hours to get to 400
> ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg). Please explain it, why the difference is so
> bigger? Or please see the ATTACHED 1st and 2nd to verify the CO2%
> reducing curve in TRNFlow with ATTACTED 4th the actual measurement curve.
>
> 2. Please tell me how to get the CO2% data etc. of TRNFlow output
> after running?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> Br.
>
> wang
>
>
> 2011/2/24 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com
> <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>>
>
> Dear Mr Wang,
> it is not working to use CO2 concentrations if you turn off TRNFLOW.
> So you will have to use TRNFLOW and if you want to define a fixed
> infiltration rate, then you could use the link type "test data"
> and so define the 0.52xx ACH.
> Best regards
> Christian Frenzel
>
> TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>
> hotline at transsolar.com <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>
>
> www.trnsys.de <http://www.trnsys.de/>
>
> Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes
> Bauen und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>
> Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart /
> Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639
>
> Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas
> Auer, Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Von:* 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com
> <mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>]
> *Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 23. Februar 2011 10:48
> *An:* hotline
> *Betreff:* Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions
> about TRNSYS
>
> Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>
> Thanks!
>
> In the TRNFlow manual: there it is explained that "As soon
> as TRNFLOW is turned on, (...) in the simulation the defined
> infiltrations, ventilations and couplings will be replaced with
> the calculated air flows." The fact is that I defined
> initial CO2% as 1000 ppm(0.00164 kg/kg) in the test room in
> TRNFlow, and I defined the ambient CO2% as 380 ppm(0.0005819
> kg/kg). Meanwhile, I defined the infiltration rate as 0.5276 1/h
> in TRNBUILD. I want to compare the CO2% reducing curve in the
> test room based on the infiltration rate 0.5276 1/h of actual
> measurement value with by TRNSYS simulation. But when I used
> TRNFLOW, the defined infiltration rate as 0.5276 1/h in TRNBUILD
> was replaced maybe. 1000 ppm in the test room keeps constant.
> Please see the ATTACHED.
>
> Please explain this! Or tell me how to define in
> TRNSYS/TRNFlow in order to compare the test room infiltration rate
> of actual measurement value with by TRNSYS/TRNFlow simulation? I
> want to observe CO2%'s reducing curve when infiltration rate is
> 0.5276 1/h (I measured the value in the test room) using
> TRNSYS/TRNFlow, to observe the CO2%'s reducing curve whether is
> the same as the actual measuring CO2%'s reducing curve or not?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> Br.
>
> wang
>
>
> 2011/2/22 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com
> <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>>
>
> Dear Mr Wang,
> 1) unfortunately I have no advice to this
> 2) The steps of the air temperature are resulting from the
> WALL TRANSFER FUNCTION CALCULATION. You are using a very small
> timestep of the simulation the wall transfer function is
> updated only every hour (that's the timebase). This is why you
> are getting these steps. So you would have to decrease the
> TIMEBASE by reducing the walls thickness.
> 3) Please have a look at the energy balance for a zone. You'll
> find these information in the MultizoneBuilding Manual on page
> 43 chapter Balance 4
> Best regards
> Christian Frenzel
>
> TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>
> hotline at transsolar.com <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>
>
> www.trnsys.de <http://www.trnsys.de/>
>
> Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für
> energieeffizientes Bauen und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>
> Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563
> Stuttgart / Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id:
> DE152272639
>
> Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas
> Auer, Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Von:* 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com
> <mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>]
> *Gesendet:* Montag, 21. Februar 2011 11:12
> *An:* hotline
> *Betreff:* Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions
> about TRNSYS
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>
> Many thanks!
>
> After I installed both of them once again, it's OK.
>
> 1. To radiative part: The test room has 2 heatings: one is
> radiator, its power is 578 W, another is convector, its power
> is 540 W. How can I define this situation's radiative part? As
> you said can I think both of them have only convective part?
> So I define the radiative part is 0 or not? As you know, it is
> very difficult to make sure what's the convective and
> radiative part of this test room situation. But my professor
> let me figure it out, so can I define the radiative part as 0?
> Or do you have some experience about this radiative part defining?
>
> 2. To thermal time constant: Thermal time constants are a
> feature of the lumped system analysis
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumped_system_analysis> (lumped
> capacity analysis method) for thermal systems, used when
> objects cool or warm uniformly under the influence of
> convective cooling or warming. In this case, the heat transfer
> from the body to the ambient at a given time is proportional
> to the temperature difference between the body and the ambient.
> Physically, the constant represents the time it takes the
> system's step response
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step_response> to reach 1-1/e
> \approx 63.2% of its final (asymptotic) value.
>
> Please see ATTACHED 1st: Tset-point is 21°C from 8 am to 6 pm,
> other is 20°C, Thermal time constant of this test room is the
> time that Tindoor air gets to the 20°C
> +63.2%(21-20°C)=20.632°C. But this is at the situation of
> floor heating. I want to simulate the situation when using
> Radiator and Convector.
> Please see ATTACHED 2nd: The result is very strange. T indoor
> air which rises from lower temperature to higher appeares 3
> jumps, this is very strange, because I closed all the windows
> and turned off TRNFLOW, only defined the infiltration in order
> to simulate the actual situation of the test room. But,
> meanwhile, QHeat is keeping constant.
> Please see the .tpf and ,bui files of ATTACHED.
>
>
> Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant of the
> test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the
> ideal heating?
>
>
>
> 3. To ideal heating: Where is this heating? Can I define its
> position? How is it operating or working?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> br.
>
> wang
>
>
> 2011/2/18 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com
> <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>>
>
> Dear Mr Wang,
> I assume that after installing the TRNSYS 17.00.0019
> version you installed the latest TRNFLOW version from the
> 12.1.2011 .
> These two versions have to be installed. If you have these
> two then please make sure that you have fully reading and
> writing rights for the TRNSYS 17 installation folder.
> Every heat source has a certain radiative part and
> convective part, it's up to you to define these values. If
> you want to get further information about this please
> refer to common literature about heat exchange.
> Ideal heating means a theoretical value that directly
> interacts with the energy balance of an airnode. It
> represents the heating that is required/available to heat
> up the room air temperature. The energy balance of an
> airnode you can find in the MultizoneBuilding manual.
> If you explain me the meaning of the TIME CONSTANT and the
> context of what you are comparing then maybe we could have
> an advice.
>
> Best regards
>
> Christian Frenzel
>
> TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>
> hotline at transsolar.com <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>
>
> www.trnsys.de <http://www.trnsys.de/>
>
> Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für
> energieeffizientes Bauen und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>
> Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563
> Stuttgart / Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id:
> DE152272639
>
> Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing.
> Thomas Auer, Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Von:* 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com
> <mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>]
> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 18. Februar 2011 14:16
> *An:* hotline
> *Betreff:* Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions
> about TRNSYS
>
> Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>
> Please tell me: All the program is OK, but after I update
> the TRNFlow, I want to RUN or right-click TYPE 56 and
> select EDIT Building, it appears at once Visual Studio
> Debugger Window! I cann't RUN the .tpf file and Edit
> building.But I can directly open the same .bui file from
> TRNBuild not from Simulation Studio and right-click TYPE
> 56 and select Edit Building.
>
> I think the connection between Simualtion Studio and
> TRNBuild is having problem after update TRNFLow.
>
> The bug shows Unbahandelte win32- Ausnahme in
> TRNBuild.exe(1564)
> Mögliche Debugger:
> Neue Instanz von Visual Studio 2005
>
>
> PLEASE tell me how to solve with it?
>
> I'm extremely worried!
>
>
> 1. Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART in
> HEATING option? If the heating are Radiator and Convector,
> how to define this RADIATIVE PART? What's percent to set?
> 0 or other?
> 2. I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C from
> 8 am to 6 pm, other time is 18 C in the test room . I used
> the HEATING to realize it, but the heating is ideal
> heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal heating?
> The result is the indoor temperature can get to the set
> point at once and no time delay, so I cann't get the
> THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the test room. But my professor
> let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of using TRNSYS to
> calculate the time constant and actual measurement test
> room result of time constant. Please tell me how to get
> the thermal time constant of the test room using TRNSYS?
> Or how to explain to my professor the ideal heating?
>
>
> 2011/2/18 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com
> <mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>>
>
> Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>
> Please tell me: All the program is OK, but after I
> update the TRNFlow, I want to RUN or EDIT Building,
> it appears at once Visual Studio Debugger Window! I
> cann't RUN the .tpf file and Edit building.
>
> IT shows Unbahandelte win32- Ausnahme in
> TRNBuild.exe(1564)
> Mögliche Debugger:
> Neue Instanz von Visual Studio 2005
>
> PLEASE tell me how to solve with it?
>
> I'm extremely worried!
>
>
>
> 1. Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART
> in HEATING option? If the heating are Radiator and
> Convector, how to define this RADIATIVE PART? What's
> percent to set? 0 or other?
> 2. I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C
> from 8 am to 6 pm, other time is 18 C in the test
> room . I used the HEATING to realize it, but the
> heating is ideal heating. Please tell me what's the
> meaning of ideal heating?
> The result is the indoor temperature can get to the
> set point at once and no time delay, so I cann't get
> the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the test room. But my
> professor let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of
> using TRNSYS to calculate the time constant and actual
> measurement test room result of time constant. Please
> tell me how to get the thermal time constant of the
> test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my
> professor the ideal heating?
>
>
>
>
>
> Many thanks!
>
> Br.
>
> wang
>
>
> 2011/2/18 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com
> <mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>>
>
> Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>
> Please tell me: All the program is OK, but after I
> update the TRNFlow, I want to RUN or EDIT
> Building, it appears at once Visual Studio
> Debugger Window! I cann't RUN the .tpf file and
> Edit building.
>
> PLEASE tell me how to solve with it?
>
> I'm extremely worried!
>
>
>
> 1. Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE
> PART in HEATING option? If the heating are
> Radiator and Convector, how to define this
> RADIATIVE PART? What's percent to set? 0 or other?
> 2. I defined a set point indoor
> temperature:20C from 8 am to 6 pm, other time is
> 18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING to
> realize it, but the heating is ideal heating.
> Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal heating?
> The result is the indoor temperature can get to
> the set point at once and no time delay, so I
> cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the test
> room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS to verify
> the result of using TRNSYS to calculate the time
> constant and actual measurement test room result
> of time constant. Please tell me how to get the
> thermal time constant of the test room using
> TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the
> ideal heating?
>
>
>
>
>
> Many thanks!
>
> Br.
>
> wang
>
> 2011/2/17 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com
> <mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>>
>
> Dear Mr. Frenzel,
> thanks!
> 1. Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE
> PART in HEATING option? If the heating are
> Radiator and Convector, how to define this
> RADIATIVE PART? What's percent to set? 0 or
> other?
> 2. I defined a set point indoor
> temperature:20C from 8 am to 6 pm, other time
> is 18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING
> to realize it, but the heating is ideal
> heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of
> ideal heating?
> The result is the indoor temperature can get
> to the set point at once and no time delay, so
> I cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the
> test room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS
> to verify the result of using TRNSYS to
> calculate the time constant and actual
> measurement test room result of time constant.
> Please tell me how to get the thermal time
> constant of the test room using TRNSYS? Or how
> to explain to my professor the ideal heating?
> Many thanks!
> br.
> wang
>
>
> 2011/2/15 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com
> <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>>
>
> Dear Mr. Wang,
> 2. Indeed in this program has no TRNFLOW,
> Do you mean the infiltration only includes
> the amount of air entering the room at
> TAMB condition?
>
> right
>
> Did you see the last email's ATTACHEDs?
> But I got the result of QINF which are the
> same when the infiltration is on or off. I
> think TNRSYS's results are questionable.
> Why I turn off the infiltration, is there
> still having QINF?
> If you are using TRNFLOW then these
> definitions replace the definitions in the
> ZONE regime data like INFILTRATION,
> VENTILATION and COUPLING
>
>
> And when the walls are massless or
> massive, the result of QINF which are the
> same, it's 190.73 kJ all the time not only
> turning on the infiltration but also
> turning off it; not only massless but also
> massive.
> You have defined wind influence and so
> even if the windows are closed you get a
> certain infiltration
>
> Best regards
>
> Christian Frenzel
>
> TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>
> hotline at transsolar.com
> <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>
>
> www.trnsys.de <http://www.trnsys.de/>
>
> Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien
> für energieeffizientes Bauen und
> Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>
> Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH,
> Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart /
> Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 /
> UsSt.-Id: DE152272639
>
> Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias
> Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer, Dipl.Phys.
> Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TRNSYS-users mailing list
> TRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.edu
> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
--
***************************
David BRADLEY
Principal
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
Madison, WI 53703 USA
P:+1.608.274.2577
F:+1.608.278.1475
d.bradley at tess-inc.com
http://www.tess-inc.com
http://www.trnsys.com
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