[TRNSYS-users] there are some questions about TRNFLOW 's TEST DATA thanks!

王洋 wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com
Wed Mar 2 07:41:12 PST 2011


Dear Mr. Bradley,

     I have already asked the distributor, but until now there is no answer.
Maybe they are very busy.

    So I hope there are some experts here  to tell me.

   br.

wang


2011/3/2 David BRADLEY <d.bradley at tess-inc.com>

>  Wang,
>   If your questions are not being answered on this user forum, they should
> be directed to the distributor from whom you purchased TRNFlow.
> Regards,
>  David
>
>
> On 3/2/2011 07:41, 王洋 wrote:
>
>
> Dear all,
>
>  I have some questions about TRNFLOW 's TEST DATA:
>
>
>
> To "test data" :  :
>
> 1. I defined "test data", I defined initial CO2% as 1000 ppm(0.00164
> kg/kg) in the test room in TRNFlow, and I defined the ambient CO2% as 400
> ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg). But after running, the ambient CO2% as 400
> ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg) doesn't work, the indoor CO2% reduce beyond 400
> ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg) and up to 6.00E-10kg/kg, i think the air flow rate in
> test data works all the time, the ambient CO2% as 400 ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg)
> doesn't work.
> So I defined an Equation in simulation studio: when CONZ(the indoor CO2%
> )<0.00065726, air flow factor is 0. What's the meaning of air flow factor?
>  I think the above problem's reason is air flow factor(1) works all the
> time. Is my thought right or not? Please see the ATTACHED 1st and 2nd.
> Please have a look at my programs whether are they right or not? If not
> please correct them. thanks!
>
>
>
> But after running, I found CO2% reducing rate of the curve is very faster
> than my actual measurement in the test room. Please see the ATTACTED 3rd and
> 4th. To 3rd you can see only about 2 hours the CO2% got to 400
> ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg), but to 4th the actual measurement curve in the test
> room: it needs about 10 hours to get to 400 ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg). Please
> explain it, why the difference is so bigger? Or please see the ATTACHED 1st
> and 2nd to verify the CO2% reducing curve in TRNFlow with ATTACTED 4th the
> actual measurement curve.
>
> 2. Please tell me how to get the CO2% data etc. of TRNFlow output after
> running?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> Br.
>
> wang
>
>
> 2011/2/24 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com>
>
>  Dear Mr Wang,
>>
>> it is not working to use CO2 concentrations if you turn off TRNFLOW.
>> So you will have to use TRNFLOW and if you want to define a fixed
>> infiltration rate, then you could use the link type "test data" and so
>> define the 0.52xx ACH.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Christian Frenzel
>>
>>
>>
>> TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>>
>> hotline at transsolar.com
>>
>>
>>
>> www.trnsys.de
>>
>> Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen
>> und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>>
>> Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart /
>> Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639
>>
>> Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer,
>> Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>    *Von:* 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com]
>> *Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 23. Februar 2011 10:48
>> *An:* hotline
>> *Betreff:* Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions about
>> TRNSYS
>>
>>   Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>>
>>       Thanks!
>>
>>       In the TRNFlow manual: there it is explained that "As soon as
>> TRNFLOW is turned on, (...) in the simulation the defined infiltrations,
>> ventilations and couplings will be replaced with the calculated air flows."
>>          The fact is that I defined initial CO2% as 1000 ppm(0.00164 kg/kg)
>> in the test room in TRNFlow, and I defined the ambient CO2% as 380
>> ppm(0.0005819 kg/kg). Meanwhile,  I defined the infiltration rate as 0.5276
>> 1/h in TRNBUILD.  I want to compare the CO2% reducing curve in the test room
>> based on the infiltration rate  0.5276 1/h of actual measurement value with
>> by TRNSYS simulation. But when I used TRNFLOW, the defined infiltration rate
>> as 0.5276 1/h in TRNBUILD was replaced maybe.  1000 ppm in the test room
>> keeps constant. Please see the ATTACHED.
>>
>>     Please explain this! Or tell me how to define in TRNSYS/TRNFlow in
>> order to compare the test room infiltration rate of actual measurement value
>> with by TRNSYS/TRNFlow simulation? I want to observe CO2%'s reducing curve
>> when infiltration rate is 0.5276 1/h (I measured the value in the test room)
>> using TRNSYS/TRNFlow, to observe the  CO2%'s reducing curve whether is the
>> same as the actual measuring CO2%'s reducing curve or not?
>>
>>    Many thanks!
>>
>>   Br.
>>
>> wang
>>
>>
>>  2011/2/22 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com>
>>
>>>  Dear Mr Wang,
>>>  1) unfortunately I have no advice to this
>>> 2) The steps of the air temperature are resulting from the WALL TRANSFER
>>> FUNCTION CALCULATION. You are using a very small timestep of the simulation
>>> the wall transfer function is updated only every hour (that's the timebase).
>>> This is why you are getting these steps. So you would have to decrease the
>>> TIMEBASE by reducing the walls thickness.
>>> 3) Please have a look at the energy balance for a zone. You'll find these
>>> information in the MultizoneBuilding Manual on page 43 chapter Balance 4
>>>  Best regards
>>> Christian Frenzel
>>>
>>> TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>>>
>>> hotline at transsolar.com
>>>
>>> www.trnsys.de
>>>
>>> Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen
>>> und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>>>
>>> Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart /
>>> Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639
>>>
>>> Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer,
>>> Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------
>>>       *Von:* 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com]
>>> *Gesendet:* Montag, 21. Februar 2011 11:12
>>> *An:* hotline
>>> *Betreff:* Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions about
>>> TRNSYS
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>>>
>>>  Many thanks!
>>>
>>>  After I installed both of them once again, it's OK.
>>>
>>> 1. To radiative part: The test room has 2 heatings: one is radiator, its
>>> power is 578 W, another is convector, its power is 540 W. How can I define
>>> this situation's radiative part? As you said can I think both of them have
>>> only convective part? So I define the radiative part is 0 or not? As you
>>> know, it is very difficult to make sure what's the convective and radiative
>>> part of this test room situation. But my professor let me figure it out, so
>>> can I define the radiative part as 0? Or do you have some experience about
>>> this radiative part defining?
>>>
>>> 2. To thermal time constant: Thermal time constants are a feature of the lumped
>>> system analysis <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumped_system_analysis>(lumped capacity analysis method) for thermal systems, used when objects
>>> cool or warm uniformly under the influence of convective cooling or warming.
>>> In this case, the heat transfer from the body to the ambient at a given time
>>> is proportional to the temperature difference between the body and the
>>> ambient.
>>> Physically, the constant represents the time it takes the system's step
>>> response <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step_response> to reach [image:
>>> 1-1/e \approx 63.2%] of its final (asymptotic) value.
>>>
>>> Please see ATTACHED 1st: Tset-point is 21°C from 8 am to 6 pm, other is
>>> 20°C, Thermal time constant of this test room is the time that Tindoor air
>>> gets to the 20°C +63.2%(21-20°C)=20.632°C. But this is at the situation of
>>> floor heating. I want to simulate the situation when using Radiator and
>>> Convector.
>>> Please see ATTACHED 2nd: The result is very strange. T indoor air which
>>> rises from lower temperature to higher appeares 3 jumps, this is very
>>> strange, because I closed all the windows and turned off TRNFLOW, only
>>> defined the infiltration in order to simulate the actual situation of the
>>> test room. But, meanwhile, QHeat is keeping constant.
>>> Please see the .tpf and ,bui files of ATTACHED.
>>>
>>> Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant of the test room
>>> using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the ideal heating?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   3. To ideal heating: Where is this heating? Can I define its position?
>>> How is it operating or working?
>>>
>>> Many thanks!
>>>
>>> br.
>>>
>>> wang
>>>
>>>
>>> 2011/2/18 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com>
>>>
>>>  Dear Mr Wang,
>>>>  I assume that after installing the TRNSYS 17.00.0019 version you
>>>> installed the latest TRNFLOW version from the 12.1.2011 .
>>>> These two versions have to be installed. If you have these two then
>>>> please make sure that you have fully reading and writing rights for the
>>>> TRNSYS 17 installation folder.
>>>>  Every heat source has a certain radiative part and convective part,
>>>> it's up to you to define these values. If you want to get further
>>>> information about this please refer to common literature about heat
>>>> exchange.
>>>>  Ideal heating means a theoretical value that directly interacts with
>>>> the energy balance of an airnode. It represents the heating that is
>>>> required/available to heat up the room air temperature. The energy balance
>>>> of an airnode you can find in the MultizoneBuilding manual.
>>>>  If you explain me the meaning of the TIME CONSTANT and the context of
>>>> what you are comparing then maybe we could have an advice.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>>
>>>> Christian Frenzel
>>>>
>>>> TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>>>>
>>>> hotline at transsolar.com
>>>>
>>>> www.trnsys.de
>>>>
>>>> Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen
>>>> und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>>>>
>>>> Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart /
>>>> Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639
>>>>
>>>> Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer,
>>>> Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>          *Von:* 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com]
>>>> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 18. Februar 2011 14:16
>>>> *An:* hotline
>>>> *Betreff:* Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions about TRNSYS
>>>>
>>>>   Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>>>>
>>>> Please tell me: All the program is OK, but after I update the TRNFlow, I
>>>> want to RUN or right-click TYPE 56 and select EDIT Building, it appears at
>>>> once Visual Studio Debugger Window! I cann't RUN the .tpf file and Edit
>>>> building. But I can directly open the same .bui file from TRNBuild not
>>>> from Simulation Studio and right-click TYPE 56 and select Edit Building.
>>>>
>>>> I think the connection between Simualtion Studio and TRNBuild is having
>>>> problem after update TRNFLow.
>>>>
>>>> The bug shows Unbahandelte win32- Ausnahme in TRNBuild.exe(1564)
>>>> Mögliche Debugger:
>>>> Neue Instanz von Visual Studio 2005
>>>>
>>>>   PLEASE tell me how to solve with it?
>>>>
>>>>   I'm extremely worried!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   1.  Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART in HEATING option?
>>>> If the heating are Radiator and Convector, how to define this RADIATIVE
>>>> PART? What's percent to set? 0 or other?
>>>>     2.  I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C from 8 am to 6 pm,
>>>> other time is 18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING to realize it, but
>>>> the heating is ideal heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal
>>>> heating?
>>>>   The result is the indoor temperature can get to the set point at once
>>>> and no time delay, so I cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the test
>>>> room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of using
>>>> TRNSYS to calculate the time constant and actual measurement test room
>>>> result of time constant. Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant
>>>> of the test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the ideal
>>>> heating?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2011/2/18 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>>>>>
>>>>> Please tell me: All the program is OK, but after I update the TRNFlow,
>>>>> I want to RUN or EDIT Building, it appears at once Visual Studio Debugger
>>>>> Window! I cann't RUN the .tpf file and Edit building.
>>>>>
>>>>>  IT shows Unbahandelte win32- Ausnahme in TRNBuild.exe(1564)
>>>>> Mögliche Debugger:
>>>>> Neue Instanz von Visual Studio 2005
>>>>>
>>>>>   PLEASE tell me how to solve with it?
>>>>>
>>>>>   I'm extremely worried!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   1.  Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART in HEATING
>>>>> option? If the heating are Radiator and Convector, how to define this
>>>>> RADIATIVE PART? What's percent to set? 0 or other?
>>>>>     2.  I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C from 8 am to 6 pm,
>>>>> other time is 18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING to realize it, but
>>>>> the heating is ideal heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal
>>>>> heating?
>>>>>   The result is the indoor temperature can get to the set point at once
>>>>> and no time delay, so I cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the test
>>>>> room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of using
>>>>> TRNSYS to calculate the time constant and actual measurement test room
>>>>> result of time constant. Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant
>>>>> of the test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the ideal
>>>>> heating?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Many thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>>   Br.
>>>>>
>>>>> wang
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  2011/2/18 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please tell me: All the program is OK, but after I update the
>>>>>> TRNFlow,  I want to RUN or EDIT Building, it appears at once Visual Studio
>>>>>> Debugger Window! I cann't RUN the .tpf file and Edit building.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   PLEASE tell me how to solve with it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   I'm extremely worried!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   1.  Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART in HEATING
>>>>>> option? If the heating are Radiator and Convector, how to define this
>>>>>> RADIATIVE PART? What's percent to set? 0 or other?
>>>>>>     2.  I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C from 8 am to 6
>>>>>> pm, other time is 18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING to realize it,
>>>>>> but the heating is ideal heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal
>>>>>> heating?
>>>>>>   The result is the indoor temperature can get to the set point at
>>>>>> once and no time delay, so I cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the
>>>>>> test room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of using
>>>>>> TRNSYS to calculate the time constant and actual measurement test room
>>>>>> result of time constant. Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant
>>>>>> of the test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the ideal
>>>>>> heating?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Many thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Br.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wang
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2011/2/17 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>>>>>>>  thanks!
>>>>>>> 1.  Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART in HEATING
>>>>>>> option? If the heating are Radiator and Convector, how to define this
>>>>>>> RADIATIVE PART? What's percent to set? 0 or other?
>>>>>>>     2.  I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C from 8 am to 6
>>>>>>> pm, other time is 18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING to realize it,
>>>>>>> but the heating is ideal heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal
>>>>>>> heating?
>>>>>>>   The result is the indoor temperature can get to the set point at
>>>>>>> once and no time delay, so I cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the
>>>>>>> test room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of using
>>>>>>> TRNSYS to calculate the time constant and actual measurement test room
>>>>>>> result of time constant. Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant
>>>>>>> of the test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the ideal
>>>>>>> heating?
>>>>>>> Many thanks!
>>>>>>> br.
>>>>>>> wang
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2011/2/15 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Dear Mr. Wang,
>>>>>>>>  2. Indeed in this program has no TRNFLOW, Do you mean the
>>>>>>>> infiltration only includes the amount of air entering the room at TAMB
>>>>>>>> condition?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  right
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Did you see the last email's ATTACHEDs? But I got the result of QINF
>>>>>>>> which are the same when the infiltration is on or off. I think TNRSYS's
>>>>>>>> results are questionable. Why I turn off the infiltration, is there still
>>>>>>>> having QINF?
>>>>>>>>  If you are using TRNFLOW then these definitions replace the
>>>>>>>> definitions in the ZONE regime data like INFILTRATION, VENTILATION and
>>>>>>>> COUPLING
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And  when the walls are massless or massive, the result of  QINF
>>>>>>>> which are the same, it's 190.73 kJ all the time not only turning on the
>>>>>>>> infiltration but also turning off it; not only massless but also massive.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  You have defined wind influence and so even if the windows are
>>>>>>>> closed you get a certain infiltration
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Christian Frenzel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hotline at transsolar.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> www.trnsys.de
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes
>>>>>>>> Bauen und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart /
>>>>>>>> Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer,
>>>>>>>> Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TRNSYS-users mailing listTRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.eduhttps://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>
>
> --
> ***************************
> David BRADLEY
> Principal
> Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
> 22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
> Madison, WI  53703 USA
>
> P:+1.608.274.2577
> F:+1.608.278.1475d.bradley at tess-inc.com
> http://www.tess-inc.comhttp://www.trnsys.com
>
>
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