[Bldg-sim] cold war, cold weather...

Dru Crawley dbcrawley at gmail.com
Sat Jun 8 15:58:19 PDT 2019


1 percent of 8760 = 87.6

On Sat, Jun 8, 2019, 6:03 PM Chris Yates via Bldg-sim <
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org> wrote:

> Thanks Joe. This is fascinating.
>
> My understanding of the percentiles 0.4, 1.0, 99 & 99.6% design data was
> that they covered everything except the coldest or hottest 35 or 87.6 hours
> in a typical year. I need to double check my understanding. All I know is
> that it seems to work the opposite way around if I use Excel's
> PERCENTILE.INC function!
>
> Was the translation of the 1% to 0.4% based on the former being two
> seasons?
> On 7 Jun 2019 21:20, "Michael J Witte via Bldg-sim" <
> bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Joe - I was hoping someone would chime in with more authority. And
>> a fascinating personal history - who knew?
>>
>> On 6/7/2019 2:36 PM, Joe Huang via Bldg-sim wrote:
>>
>> As the current chair of TC 4.2 Climatic Information, I feel obligated to
>> reply :-)
>>
>> While I admire Chris' and your enthusiasm, I am pretty certain that the
>> design temperatures in the ASHRAE Handbook grew out of the needs of the
>> HVAC engineers going back at least to the 1940's for cooling, and even much
>> earlier for heating.  I'm hoping that Jeff  Haberl can clarify the
>> situation and have cc'd him on this e-mail to get his attention. I've also
>> cc'd the TC4.2 Group in case others remember more clearly the history of
>> ASHRAE design temperatures. If I were a betting man, I would wager the HOF
>> design temperatures came out of either the industry (Carrier ?) or
>> engineers within the predecessor societies AHVE, ASHE that merged in 1959
>> to form ASHRAE, and that the  Air Force adopted it in their publication,
>> rather than the other way around. As Michael had pointed out, the AF
>> publication states that the design temperatures were "intended to support
>> design and construction of DOD facilities", with no mention of use in
>> military aviation.
>>
>> It's funny how this almost off-the-cuff decision had endured and got
>> embellished to make it seem more hefty.  For example, in the 1960's
>> engineers got concerned about dynamic effects and so added on hourly
>> profiles for temperature, solar, wind, etc., to create an artificial design
>> day, and in the 1990's to accommodate climates with different seasons (or
>> no seasons!) the criteria was switched from  a seasonal 1% to an annual
>> 0.4%.  Why 0.4% ?  Simply because the temperatures would match the previous
>> 1% seasonal  (I was in TC 4.2 at the time and recalled those
>> discussions).   The evolution of ASHRAE Design Conditions would seem also
>> to make an interesting and informative paper.
>>
>> As far as meteorology having an impact on military operations, I can
>> describe an old family story.  My father, Dr. Hsia-Chien Huang
>> <https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/photos/irving-p.-krick-dr.-hsia-chien-huang?sort=mostpopular&mediatype=photography&phrase=irving%20p.%20krick%20dr.%20hsia%20chien%20huang&license=rf,rm&page=1&recency=anydate&suppressfamilycorrection=true>,
>> was the Chief Meteorologist of China during World War Two.  He received his
>> Ph.D. at Caltech in the late 1930's studying with Dr. Irving Krick
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_P._Krick>. Dr. Krick was hired by
>> General Eisenhower to forecast the weather for the Normandy Invasion. The
>> details are in the web page so I won't describe them here, only to say that
>> I grew up hearing that Dr. Krick predicted the weather for the invasion and
>> that someone in the UK actually produced a play about this incident. Since
>> Dr. Krick sponsored my family to the US in 1955, I can say that the only
>> reason I'm in the US is due to meteorology!   For the oldtimers in TC 4.2,
>> can you guess who picked up my family when we arrived in Denver 64 years
>> ago?  Loren Crow,  who was then working for Dr. Krick, as did my father
>> afterwards.  Loren was very involved in TC 4.2 up until the early 1990s,
>> having created the original WYEC files and the CTZ files for California.
>> Gee, maybe all these deep personal connections to meteorology might explain
>> my late life pre-occupation with weather data!
>>
>> Joe
>> On 6/7/2019 7:05 AM, Michael J Witte via Bldg-sim wrote:
>>
>> Chris - Sure, go right ahead and write a joint article for CIBSE and
>> ASHRAE.
>>
>> I know ASHRAE is working on interviewing those with a long-time
>> perspective (old-timers) to document early ASHRAE work.
>> Jeff H - anything related to weather data happening in the history
>> effort? Maybe some members of the weather data TC would contribute.
>>
>> Linda - Does the forward of Engineering Weather Data have any mention of
>> the motivation for that data? Is that where the concept of using 99% etc.
>> was first used?
>>
>> Anyone out there have a copy of the Fluor Products publication? It was
>> cited as the source of the US design data in the 1972 HOF.
>> Evaluated Weather Data For Cooling Equipment Design, Addendum No. 1,
>> Summer and Winter Data (Fluor Products Company, Santa Rosa, Calif., 1964).
>>
>> On 6/6/2019 8:30 AM, Linda Lawrie wrote:
>>
>> I have a copy of the Engineering Weather Data document (1978 version).
>> (Thanks, Bob H).
>>
>> And many other historical "weather data" documents though not sure how
>> many discuss heating/cooling design data.
>>
>> Linda
>>
>> At 04:32 AM 6/6/2019, Chris Yates via Bldg-sim wrote:
>>
>> Wow. You know what Michael. I think you have the makings of an ASHRAE
>> journal atricle! I want to do something similar for CIBSE. I'd love to use
>> your findings.
>> On 5 Jun 2019 23:21, "Michael J Witte via Bldg-sim" <
>> bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org> wrote:
>> I haven't seen a reply yet to this, so here goes . . .
>>
>> The oldest ASHRAE handbook on my shelf is a 1972 HOF (thanks Bob H.!).
>> Chapter 33 is Weather Data and Design Conditions. The reference list
>> includes these two primary sources:
>>
>> Evaluated Weather Data For Cooling Equipment Design, Addendum No. 1,
>> Summer and Winter Data (Fluor Products Company, Santa Rosa, Calif., 1964).
>> and
>> Engineering Weather Data (Army, Navy, and Air Force Manual TM 5-785,
>> 1963).
>>
>> You can buy a copy of the 1958 edition of Evaluated Weather Data on amazon
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/Evaluated-Weather-Cooling-Equipment-Design/dp/B000HDSNFY
>>
>> I bet someone out there has a copy of the Engineering Weather Data manual
>> on a shelf. Some quick searching leads to this later online version.
>>
>> http://web.utk.edu/~archinfo/EcoDesign/escurriculum/weather_data/weather_data_summ.html
>> which says:
>>
>> "The Engineering Weather Data (EWD) and other products were developed by
>> the Air Force Combat Climatology Center (AFCCC). Data is provided for
>> approximately 800 stations worldwide. Intended to support design and
>> construction of DOD facilities, the format is slanted toward professional
>> engineers, but could have numerous other uses. "
>>
>> Searching AFCCC leads here to a fascinating history.
>> https://www.airweaassn.org/Library/afwa/history.html
>>
>> "The mission of AFCCC is one of military applied climatology. We collect,
>> maintain, and apply worldwide weather data, creating climatological
>> products to strengthen the combat capability of America's warfighters.
>> AFCCC's support to America's warfighters has a long history."
>>
>> And a fitting excerpt on the 75th anniversary of D-Day:
>>
>> "There was probably no WWII operation, major or minor, that did not
>> include climatological input. The planning for every landing, mission, and
>> offensive, including the D-Day invasion in 1944 and the atomic bombing of
>> Japan, required extensive climatological preparation and analyses."
>>
>> So, Chris, your impression appears correct. Weather data statistics were
>> motivated by military requirements (for better or worse), and marketing
>> cooling equipment.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> p.s. The pages from the 1972 HOF are included in a digitized NBSLD manual
>> (one of the great mother programs of building simulation), pdf p. 287ff.
>>
>> https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-9bcc6856169c63cf2c5ab81af189bd75/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-9bcc6856169c63cf2c5ab81af189bd75.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/20/2019 4:16 AM, Chris Yates via Bldg-sim wrote:
>>
>> Hi All
>>
>> Does anybody have any interesting background on the sources of (and
>> motivations for calculating) the outdoor design conditions now available in
>> ASHRAE HOF?
>>
>> My impression is that it was possibly derived for the purposes of keeping
>> B52's and allied v-bombers ready for action at a moment's notice.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
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