<div dir="auto">1 percent of 8760 = 87.6</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jun 8, 2019, 6:03 PM Chris Yates via Bldg-sim <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">Thanks Joe. This is fascinating. </p>
<p dir="ltr">My understanding of the percentiles 0.4, 1.0, 99 & 99.6% design data was that they covered everything except the coldest or hottest 35 or 87.6 hours in a typical year. I need to double check my understanding. All I know is that it seems to work the opposite way around if I use Excel's PERCENTILE.INC function! </p>
<p dir="ltr">Was the translation of the 1% to 0.4% based on the former being two seasons?</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 7 Jun 2019 21:20, "Michael J Witte via Bldg-sim" <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Thanks Joe - I was hoping someone would chime in with more
authority. And a fascinating personal history - who knew?<br>
<br>
<div>On 6/7/2019 2:36 PM, Joe Huang via
Bldg-sim wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
As the current chair of TC 4.2 Climatic Information, I feel
obligated to reply :-)
<div>
<p>While I admire Chris' and your enthusiasm, I am pretty
certain that the design temperatures in the ASHRAE Handbook
grew out of the needs of the HVAC engineers going back at
least to the 1940's for cooling, and even much earlier for
heating. I'm hoping that Jeff Haberl can clarify the
situation and have cc'd him on this e-mail to get his
attention. I've also cc'd the TC4.2 Group in case others
remember more clearly the history of ASHRAE design
temperatures. If I were a betting man, I would wager the HOF
design temperatures came out of either the industry (Carrier
?) or engineers within the predecessor societies AHVE, ASHE
that merged in 1959 to form ASHRAE, and that the Air Force
adopted it in their publication, rather than the other way
around. As Michael had pointed out, the AF publication states
that the design temperatures were "intended to support design
and construction of DOD facilities", with no mention of use in
military aviation. <br>
</p>
<p>It's funny how this almost off-the-cuff decision had endured
and got embellished to make it seem more hefty. For example,
in the 1960's engineers got concerned about dynamic effects
and so added on hourly profiles for temperature, solar, wind,
etc., to create an artificial design day, and in the 1990's to
accommodate climates with different seasons (or no seasons!)
the criteria was switched from a seasonal 1% to an annual
0.4%. Why 0.4% ? Simply because the temperatures would match
the previous 1% seasonal (I was in TC 4.2 at the time and
recalled those discussions). The evolution of ASHRAE Design
Conditions would seem also to make an interesting and
informative paper.</p>
<p>As far as meteorology having an impact on military
operations, I can describe an old family story. My father, <a href="https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/photos/irving-p.-krick-dr.-hsia-chien-huang?sort=mostpopular&mediatype=photography&phrase=irving%20p.%20krick%20dr.%20hsia%20chien%20huang&license=rf,rm&page=1&recency=anydate&suppressfamilycorrection=true" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Dr.
Hsia-Chien Huang</a>, was the Chief Meteorologist of China
during World War Two. He received his Ph.D. at Caltech in the
late 1930's studying with <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_P._Krick" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Dr.
Irving Krick</a>. Dr. Krick was hired by General Eisenhower
to forecast the weather for the Normandy Invasion. The details
are in the web page so I won't describe them here, only to say
that I grew up hearing that Dr. Krick predicted the weather
for the invasion and that someone in the UK actually produced
a play about this incident. Since Dr. Krick sponsored my
family to the US in 1955, I can say that the only reason I'm
in the US is due to meteorology! For the oldtimers in TC
4.2, can you guess who picked up my family when we arrived in
Denver 64 years ago? Loren Crow, who was then working for
Dr. Krick, as did my father afterwards. Loren was very
involved in TC 4.2 up until the early 1990s, having created
the original WYEC files and the CTZ files for California.
Gee, maybe all these deep personal connections to meteorology
might explain my late life pre-occupation with weather data!<br>
</p>
<p>Joe<br>
</p>
<div>On 6/7/2019 7:05 AM, Michael J
Witte via Bldg-sim wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
Chris - Sure, go right ahead and write a joint article for
CIBSE and ASHRAE.<br>
<br>
I know ASHRAE is working on interviewing those with a
long-time perspective (old-timers) to document early ASHRAE
work.<br>
Jeff H - anything related to weather data happening in the
history effort? Maybe some members of the weather data TC
would contribute.<br>
<br>
Linda - Does the forward of Engineering Weather Data have any
mention of the motivation for that data? Is that where the
concept of using 99% etc. was first used?<br>
<br>
Anyone out there have a copy of the Fluor Products
publication? It was cited as the source of the US design data
in the 1972 HOF.<br>
Evaluated Weather Data For Cooling Equipment Design, Addendum
No. 1, Summer and Winter Data (Fluor Products Company, Santa
Rosa, Calif., 1964).<br>
<br>
<div>On 6/6/2019 8:30 AM, Linda Lawrie
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<font size="3">I have a copy of the Engineering Weather Data
document (1978 version). (Thanks, Bob H). <br>
<br>
And many other historical "weather data" documents though
not sure how many discuss heating/cooling design data.<br>
<br>
Linda<br>
<br>
At 04:32 AM 6/6/2019, Chris Yates via Bldg-sim wrote:<br>
<br>
</font>
<blockquote type="cite"><font size="3">Wow.
You know what Michael. I think you have the makings of
an ASHRAE journal atricle! I want to do something
similar for CIBSE. I'd love to use your findings. <br>
On 5 Jun 2019 23:21, "Michael J Witte via Bldg-sim" <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</font>
<dl>
<dd>I haven't seen a reply yet to this, so here goes . .
.<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>The oldest ASHRAE handbook on my shelf is a 1972 HOF
(thanks Bob H.!). Chapter 33 is Weather Data and
Design Conditions. The reference list includes these
two primary sources:<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>Evaluated Weather Data For Cooling Equipment Design,
Addendum No. 1, Summer and Winter Data (Fluor Products
Company, Santa Rosa, Calif., 1964).<br>
</dd>
<dd>and<br>
</dd>
<dd>Engineering Weather Data (Army, Navy, and Air Force
Manual TM 5-785, 1963).<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>You can buy a copy of the 1958 edition of Evaluated
Weather Data on amazon<br>
</dd>
<dd> <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Evaluated-Weather-Cooling-Equipment-Design/dp/B000HDSNFY" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
https://www.amazon.com/Evaluated-Weather-Cooling-Equipment-Design/dp/B000HDSNFY</a>
<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>I bet someone out there has a copy of the
Engineering Weather Data manual on a shelf. Some quick
searching leads to this later online version.<br>
</dd>
<dd> <a href="http://web.utk.edu/~archinfo/EcoDesign/escurriculum/weather_data/weather_data_summ.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
http://web.utk.edu/~archinfo/EcoDesign/escurriculum/weather_data/weather_data_summ.html</a>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>which says:<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>"The Engineering Weather Data (EWD) and other
products were developed by the Air Force Combat
Climatology Center (AFCCC). Data is provided for
approximately 800 stations worldwide. Intended to
support design and construction of DOD facilities, the
format is slanted toward professional engineers, but
could have numerous other uses. "<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>Searching AFCCC leads here to a fascinating history.<br>
</dd>
<dd><a href="https://www.airweaassn.org/Library/afwa/history.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
https://www.airweaassn.org/Library/afwa/history.html</a><br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>"The mission of AFCCC is one of military applied
climatology. We collect, maintain, and apply worldwide
weather data, creating climatological products to
strengthen the combat capability of America's
warfighters. AFCCC's support to America's warfighters
has a long history."<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>And a fitting excerpt on the 75th anniversary of
D-Day:<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>"There was probably no WWII operation, major or
minor, that did not include climatological input. The
planning for every landing, mission, and offensive,
including the D-Day invasion in 1944 and the atomic
bombing of Japan, required extensive climatological
preparation and analyses."<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>So, Chris, your impression appears correct. Weather
data statistics were motivated by military
requirements (for better or worse), and marketing
cooling equipment.<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>Mike<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>p.s. The pages from the 1972 HOF are included in a
digitized NBSLD manual (one of the great mother
programs of building simulation), pdf p. 287ff.<br>
</dd>
<dd> <a href="https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-9bcc6856169c63cf2c5ab81af189bd75/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-9bcc6856169c63cf2c5ab81af189bd75.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-9bcc6856169c63cf2c5ab81af189bd75/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-9bcc6856169c63cf2c5ab81af189bd75.pdf</a>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>On 5/20/2019 4:16 AM, Chris Yates via Bldg-sim
wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> <dd>Hi
All <br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>Does anybody have any interesting background on
the sources of (and motivations for calculating)
the outdoor design conditions now available in
ASHRAE HOF?<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>My impression is that it was possibly derived
for the purposes of keeping B52's and allied
v-bombers ready for action at a moment's notice.<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>Cheers<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>Chris<br>
<br>
<br>
</dd>
<dd>
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