[Bldg-sim] cold war, cold weather...

Chris Yates chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com
Sat Jun 8 15:02:41 PDT 2019


Thanks Joe. This is fascinating.

My understanding of the percentiles 0.4, 1.0, 99 & 99.6% design data was
that they covered everything except the coldest or hottest 35 or 87.6 hours
in a typical year. I need to double check my understanding. All I know is
that it seems to work the opposite way around if I use Excel's
PERCENTILE.INC function!

Was the translation of the 1% to 0.4% based on the former being two seasons?
On 7 Jun 2019 21:20, "Michael J Witte via Bldg-sim" <
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org> wrote:

> Thanks Joe - I was hoping someone would chime in with more authority. And
> a fascinating personal history - who knew?
>
> On 6/7/2019 2:36 PM, Joe Huang via Bldg-sim wrote:
>
> As the current chair of TC 4.2 Climatic Information, I feel obligated to
> reply :-)
>
> While I admire Chris' and your enthusiasm, I am pretty certain that the
> design temperatures in the ASHRAE Handbook grew out of the needs of the
> HVAC engineers going back at least to the 1940's for cooling, and even much
> earlier for heating.  I'm hoping that Jeff  Haberl can clarify the
> situation and have cc'd him on this e-mail to get his attention. I've also
> cc'd the TC4.2 Group in case others remember more clearly the history of
> ASHRAE design temperatures. If I were a betting man, I would wager the HOF
> design temperatures came out of either the industry (Carrier ?) or
> engineers within the predecessor societies AHVE, ASHE that merged in 1959
> to form ASHRAE, and that the  Air Force adopted it in their publication,
> rather than the other way around. As Michael had pointed out, the AF
> publication states that the design temperatures were "intended to support
> design and construction of DOD facilities", with no mention of use in
> military aviation.
>
> It's funny how this almost off-the-cuff decision had endured and got
> embellished to make it seem more hefty.  For example, in the 1960's
> engineers got concerned about dynamic effects and so added on hourly
> profiles for temperature, solar, wind, etc., to create an artificial design
> day, and in the 1990's to accommodate climates with different seasons (or
> no seasons!) the criteria was switched from  a seasonal 1% to an annual
> 0.4%.  Why 0.4% ?  Simply because the temperatures would match the previous
> 1% seasonal  (I was in TC 4.2 at the time and recalled those
> discussions).   The evolution of ASHRAE Design Conditions would seem also
> to make an interesting and informative paper.
>
> As far as meteorology having an impact on military operations, I can
> describe an old family story.  My father, Dr. Hsia-Chien Huang
> <https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/photos/irving-p.-krick-dr.-hsia-chien-huang?sort=mostpopular&mediatype=photography&phrase=irving%20p.%20krick%20dr.%20hsia%20chien%20huang&license=rf,rm&page=1&recency=anydate&suppressfamilycorrection=true>,
> was the Chief Meteorologist of China during World War Two.  He received his
> Ph.D. at Caltech in the late 1930's studying with Dr. Irving Krick
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_P._Krick>. Dr. Krick was hired by
> General Eisenhower to forecast the weather for the Normandy Invasion. The
> details are in the web page so I won't describe them here, only to say that
> I grew up hearing that Dr. Krick predicted the weather for the invasion and
> that someone in the UK actually produced a play about this incident. Since
> Dr. Krick sponsored my family to the US in 1955, I can say that the only
> reason I'm in the US is due to meteorology!   For the oldtimers in TC 4.2,
> can you guess who picked up my family when we arrived in Denver 64 years
> ago?  Loren Crow,  who was then working for Dr. Krick, as did my father
> afterwards.  Loren was very involved in TC 4.2 up until the early 1990s,
> having created the original WYEC files and the CTZ files for California.
> Gee, maybe all these deep personal connections to meteorology might explain
> my late life pre-occupation with weather data!
>
> Joe
> On 6/7/2019 7:05 AM, Michael J Witte via Bldg-sim wrote:
>
> Chris - Sure, go right ahead and write a joint article for CIBSE and
> ASHRAE.
>
> I know ASHRAE is working on interviewing those with a long-time
> perspective (old-timers) to document early ASHRAE work.
> Jeff H - anything related to weather data happening in the history effort?
> Maybe some members of the weather data TC would contribute.
>
> Linda - Does the forward of Engineering Weather Data have any mention of
> the motivation for that data? Is that where the concept of using 99% etc.
> was first used?
>
> Anyone out there have a copy of the Fluor Products publication? It was
> cited as the source of the US design data in the 1972 HOF.
> Evaluated Weather Data For Cooling Equipment Design, Addendum No. 1,
> Summer and Winter Data (Fluor Products Company, Santa Rosa, Calif., 1964).
>
> On 6/6/2019 8:30 AM, Linda Lawrie wrote:
>
> I have a copy of the Engineering Weather Data document (1978 version).
> (Thanks, Bob H).
>
> And many other historical "weather data" documents though not sure how
> many discuss heating/cooling design data.
>
> Linda
>
> At 04:32 AM 6/6/2019, Chris Yates via Bldg-sim wrote:
>
> Wow. You know what Michael. I think you have the makings of an ASHRAE
> journal atricle! I want to do something similar for CIBSE. I'd love to use
> your findings.
> On 5 Jun 2019 23:21, "Michael J Witte via Bldg-sim" <
> bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org> wrote:
> I haven't seen a reply yet to this, so here goes . . .
>
> The oldest ASHRAE handbook on my shelf is a 1972 HOF (thanks Bob H.!).
> Chapter 33 is Weather Data and Design Conditions. The reference list
> includes these two primary sources:
>
> Evaluated Weather Data For Cooling Equipment Design, Addendum No. 1,
> Summer and Winter Data (Fluor Products Company, Santa Rosa, Calif., 1964).
> and
> Engineering Weather Data (Army, Navy, and Air Force Manual TM 5-785, 1963).
>
> You can buy a copy of the 1958 edition of Evaluated Weather Data on amazon
> https://www.amazon.com/Evaluated-Weather-Cooling-
> Equipment-Design/dp/B000HDSNFY
>
> I bet someone out there has a copy of the Engineering Weather Data manual
> on a shelf. Some quick searching leads to this later online version.
> http://web.utk.edu/~archinfo/EcoDesign/escurriculum/
> weather_data/weather_data_summ.html
> which says:
>
> "The Engineering Weather Data (EWD) and other products were developed by
> the Air Force Combat Climatology Center (AFCCC). Data is provided for
> approximately 800 stations worldwide. Intended to support design and
> construction of DOD facilities, the format is slanted toward professional
> engineers, but could have numerous other uses. "
>
> Searching AFCCC leads here to a fascinating history.
> https://www.airweaassn.org/Library/afwa/history.html
>
> "The mission of AFCCC is one of military applied climatology. We collect,
> maintain, and apply worldwide weather data, creating climatological
> products to strengthen the combat capability of America's warfighters.
> AFCCC's support to America's warfighters has a long history."
>
> And a fitting excerpt on the 75th anniversary of D-Day:
>
> "There was probably no WWII operation, major or minor, that did not
> include climatological input. The planning for every landing, mission, and
> offensive, including the D-Day invasion in 1944 and the atomic bombing of
> Japan, required extensive climatological preparation and analyses."
>
> So, Chris, your impression appears correct. Weather data statistics were
> motivated by military requirements (for better or worse), and marketing
> cooling equipment.
>
> Mike
>
> p.s. The pages from the 1972 HOF are included in a digitized NBSLD manual
> (one of the great mother programs of building simulation), pdf p. 287ff.
> https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-
> 9bcc6856169c63cf2c5ab81af189bd75/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-
> 9bcc6856169c63cf2c5ab81af189bd75.pdf
>
>
>
> On 5/20/2019 4:16 AM, Chris Yates via Bldg-sim wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> Does anybody have any interesting background on the sources of (and
> motivations for calculating) the outdoor design conditions now available in
> ASHRAE HOF?
>
> My impression is that it was possibly derived for the purposes of keeping
> B52's and allied v-bombers ready for action at a moment's notice.
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
>
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