[Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on dates).
Joe Huang
yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
Fri Jan 29 08:46:25 PST 2016
Christopher,
I took a brief scroll through the link that you provided, and yes,
there's a lot of information there. I haven't yet found a technical
description of the methodology, but I did get to the tables with pretty
colored pictures of wall sections and their computed U-values. I hope
there's more information on the dynamic characteristics of these wall
sections, i.e., thermal mass, diffusivity, etc., since those would be
needed to model them correctly in a simulation program.
In terms of comparing the methodologies, as you've suggested, one place
to start would be simply comparing the steady-state U-values derived for
the same wall constructions. I've done some digging on my end and found
an old 1997 User News newsletter with a brief description of the 2-D
response factor work I did with Fred Winkelmann and Vladimir Bazjanac
and a table listing the R-values for the 76 steel-frame wall sections
modeled. Since the whole newsletter is only 657K, I've attached it with
this e-mail. The newsletter is interesting in other ways, as well,
including the announcement of the 5th IBPSA conference to be held in the
Czech Republic :-) .
Joe
Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
Moraga CA 94556
yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
On 1/29/2016 5:18 AM, Jones, Christopher wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> It would be very interesting to compare the methodologies in your
> paper with the results of the Morrison Herschfield research. BC Hydro
> published that detailed research.
>
> https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html?WT.mc_id=rd_thermalguide#thermal
>
> cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0**
>
> *Christopher Jones,***P.Eng./
> /Senior Engineer**
>
> **
>
> *WSP Canada Inc.*
>
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
> T +1 416-644-4226
>
> F +1 416-487-9766
>
> C +1 416-697-0056
>
> www.wspgroup.com <http://www.wspgroup.com/> //
>
> *From:*Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Joe Huang
> *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 5:44 AM
> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2
> (minor correction on dates).
>
> The work I did for the CEC was done in 1996 (as indicated in the
> report title), not 2000-2002, which was a follow-on effort to do 2-D
> foundation heat flows.
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Huang
> White Box Technologies, Inc.
> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
> Moraga CA 94556
> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
> (o) (925)388-0265
> (c) (510)928-2683
> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>
> On 1/29/2016 2:41 AM, Joe Huang wrote:
>
> I actually helped to develop a method to model thermal bridges in
> DOE-2 back in 1986 that has never been widely disseminated,
> although I still find it the most practical way to model 2-D heat
> flows in whole-building simulations.
>
> This method uses a two-dimensional finite-element program
> (WALFERFN) that calculates one-dimensional equivalent response
> factors which are written directly into the DOE-2 layers library
> (BDLLIB.DAT), which can then be called by DOE-2 just like any
> other response factor in the library.
>
> I've always used this technique in my residential modeling, with
> the added benefit of not needing to input duplicate sets of wall
> layers for the stud and non-stud portions, which measurably
> simplifies the models and makes them easier to read. The last
> time I did significant work on this subject was in 2000-2002, when
> I created for the California Energy Commission a library of over
> 100 wall layers with metal framing and thus considerable thermal
> bridging. I compared the wall assembly U-values to that
> calculated by ORNL's Heating-7 program, and they were right on.
> Unfortunately, a few years after the project was completed, the
> Commission decided to move to EnergyPlus as their reference
> program, and so this work was effectively abandoned.
>
> For more information on this technique, i.e., creating 2-D
> response factors, please see this report:
> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com/PAPERS/96_12_YJH_2Drespfacs_CEC_rpt.pdf
>
> If there's anyone who's still running DOE-2 in batch, rather than
> just the eQUEST interface, this procedure should be quite
> understandable. Just e-mail me and I'll be happy to give you a
> copy of the WALFERFN program and some sample input files.
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Huang
>
> White Box Technologies, Inc.
>
> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
>
> Moraga CA 94556
>
> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
> <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
>
> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
>
> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
>
> (o) (925)388-0265
>
> (c) (510)928-2683
>
> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>
> On 1/28/2016 1:22 PM, Jim Dirkes wrote:
>
> There is also a landmark study by Morrison Hershfield in
> Canada which I don't have access to at the moment that should
> provide guidance.
>
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Marcus Sheffer
> <sheffer at sevengroup.com <mailto:sheffer at sevengroup.com>> wrote:
>
> Follow the guidance in ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix A to determine the
> whole assembly values.
>
> Marcus Sheffer
> 7group
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jones, Christopher
> [mailto:Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com
> <mailto:Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com>]
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 8:30 AM
> To: Luis Peréz-Lombard; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest
> or DOE2
>
> Hello Sir,
> eQuest does not have the capability to directly model thermal
> bridges. The typical methodology is to calculate the effective
> U-value of the insulation/thermal bridge layer when building
> your layers for the construction. BC Hydro has published
> significant research on building envelope thermal bridging.
> See the lower portion of the webpage:
> https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html#thermal
>
>
>
>
> Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
> Senior Engineer
>
> WSP Canada Inc.
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
> T +1 416-644-4226 <tel:%2B1%20416-644-4226>
> F +1 416-487-9766 <tel:%2B1%20416-487-9766>
> C +1 416-697-0056 <tel:%2B1%20416-697-0056>
>
> www.wspgroup.com <http://www.wspgroup.com>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of
> Luis Peréz-Lombard
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 4:08 AM
> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
> Subject: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2
>
> Dear building simulation colleagues,
> I would very much appreciate any insights or work around to
> simulate envelope thermal bridges in e-quest.
> Sincerely,
> LPL
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Luis Pérez-Lombard
> Dr. Ingeniero Industrial
> Profesor Contratado Doctor
> Departamento de Ingeniería Energética
> Escuela Superior de Ingenieros
> Universidad de Sevilla
> Camino de los Descubrimientos s/n
> 41092 SEVILLA
> Tfno.: 95.448.72.56
> Fax: 95.446.31.53
> e-mail: lpl at us.es <mailto:lpl at us.es>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
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