[Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on dates).

Joe Huang yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
Fri Jan 29 09:12:58 PST 2016


(modified from previous post but replacing the attachment with a link to 
reduce file size)

On 1/29/2016 8:46 AM, Joe Huang wrote:
> Christopher,
>
> I took a brief scroll through the link that you provided, and yes, 
> there's a lot of information there. I haven't yet found a technical 
> description of the methodology, but I did get to the tables with 
> pretty colored pictures of wall sections and their computed U-values. 
> I hope there's more information on the dynamic characteristics of 
> these wall sections, i.e., thermal mass, diffusivity, etc., since 
> those would be needed to model them correctly in a simulation program.
>
> In terms of comparing the methodologies, as you've suggested, one 
> place to start would be simply comparing the steady-state U-values 
> derived for the same wall constructions. I've done some digging on my 
> end and found an old 1997 User News newsletter with a brief 
> description of the 2-D response factor work I did with Fred Winkelmann 
> and Vladimir Bazjanac and a table listing the R-values for the 76 
> steel-frame wall sections modeled.  See user news here:
http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com/downloads/Usr_News_97-3.pdf
> The newsletter is interesting in other ways, as well, including the 
> announcement of the 5th IBPSA conference to be held in the Czech 
> Republic :-) .
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Huang 	
> White Box Technologies, Inc.
> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
> Moraga CA 94556
> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com  for simulation-ready weather data
> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
> (o) (925)388-0265
> (c) (510)928-2683
> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
> On 1/29/2016 5:18 AM, Jones, Christopher wrote:
>>
>> Joe,
>>
>> It would be very interesting to compare the methodologies in your 
>> paper with the results of the Morrison Herschfield research. BC Hydro 
>> published that detailed research.
>>
>> https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html?WT.mc_id=rd_thermalguide#thermal
>>
>> cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0**
>>
>> *Christopher Jones,***P.Eng./
>> /Senior Engineer
>>
>> **
>>
>> *WSP Canada Inc.*
>>
>> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>>
>> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
>> T +1 416-644-4226
>>
>> F +1 416-487-9766
>>
>> C +1 416-697-0056
>>
>> www.wspgroup.com <http://www.wspgroup.com/> //
>>
>> *From:*Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On 
>> Behalf Of *Joe Huang
>> *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 5:44 AM
>> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or 
>> DOE2 (minor correction on dates).
>>
>> The work I did for the CEC was done in 1996 (as indicated in the 
>> report title), not 2000-2002, which was a follow-on effort to do 2-D 
>> foundation heat flows.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Joe Huang
>> White Box Technologies, Inc.
>> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
>> Moraga CA 94556
>> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com 
>> <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
>> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com  for simulation-ready weather data
>> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
>> (o) (925)388-0265
>> (c) (510)928-2683
>> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>>
>> On 1/29/2016 2:41 AM, Joe Huang wrote:
>>
>>     I actually helped to develop a method to model thermal bridges in
>>     DOE-2 back in 1986 that has never been widely disseminated,
>>     although I still find it the most practical way to model 2-D heat
>>     flows in whole-building simulations.
>>
>>     This method uses a two-dimensional finite-element program
>>     (WALFERFN) that calculates one-dimensional equivalent response
>>     factors which are written directly into the DOE-2 layers library
>>     (BDLLIB.DAT), which can then be called by DOE-2 just like any
>>     other response factor in the library.
>>
>>     I've always used this technique in my residential modeling, with
>>     the added benefit of not needing to input duplicate sets of wall
>>     layers for the stud and non-stud portions, which measurably
>>     simplifies the  models and makes them easier to read.  The last
>>     time I did significant work on this subject was in 2000-2002,
>>     when I created for the California Energy Commission a library of
>>     over 100 wall layers with metal framing and thus considerable
>>     thermal bridging.  I compared the wall assembly U-values to that
>>     calculated by ORNL's Heating-7 program, and they were right on. 
>>     Unfortunately, a few years after the project was completed, the
>>     Commission decided to move to EnergyPlus as their reference
>>     program, and so this work was effectively abandoned.
>>
>>     For more information on this technique, i.e., creating 2-D
>>     response factors, please see this report:
>>     http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com/PAPERS/96_12_YJH_2Drespfacs_CEC_rpt.pdf
>>
>>     If there's anyone who's still running DOE-2 in batch, rather than
>>     just the eQUEST interface, this procedure should be quite
>>     understandable.  Just e-mail me and I'll be happy to give you a
>>     copy of the WALFERFN program and some sample input files.
>>
>>     Joe
>>
>>     Joe Huang
>>
>>     White Box Technologies, Inc.
>>
>>     346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
>>
>>     Moraga CA 94556
>>
>>     yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
>>     <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
>>
>>     http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com  for simulation-ready weather data
>>
>>     http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
>>
>>     (o) (925)388-0265
>>
>>     (c) (510)928-2683
>>
>>     "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>>
>>     On 1/28/2016 1:22 PM, Jim Dirkes wrote:
>>
>>         There is also a landmark study by Morrison Hershfield in
>>         Canada which I don't have access to at the moment that should
>>         provide guidance.
>>
>>         On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Marcus Sheffer
>>         <sheffer at sevengroup.com <mailto:sheffer at sevengroup.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Follow the guidance in ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix A to determine
>>         the whole assembly values.
>>
>>         Marcus Sheffer
>>         7group
>>
>>         -----Original Message-----
>>         From: Jones, Christopher
>>         [mailto:Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com]
>>         Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 8:30 AM
>>         To: Luis Peréz-Lombard; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>>         <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
>>         Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest
>>         or DOE2
>>
>>         Hello Sir,
>>         eQuest does not have the capability to directly model thermal
>>         bridges. The typical methodology is to calculate the
>>         effective U-value of the insulation/thermal bridge layer when
>>         building your layers for the construction.  BC Hydro has
>>         published significant research on building  envelope thermal
>>         bridging. See the lower portion of the webpage:
>>         https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html#thermal
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
>>         Senior Engineer
>>
>>         WSP Canada Inc.
>>         2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>>         Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
>>         T +1 416-644-4226 <tel:%2B1%20416-644-4226>
>>         F +1 416-487-9766 <tel:%2B1%20416-487-9766>
>>         C +1 416-697-0056 <tel:%2B1%20416-697-0056>
>>
>>         www.wspgroup.com <http://www.wspgroup.com>
>>
>>
>>         -----Original Message-----
>>         From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>>         <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of
>>         Luis Peréz-Lombard
>>         Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 4:08 AM
>>         To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>>         <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
>>         Subject: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2
>>
>>         Dear building simulation colleagues,
>>         I would very much appreciate any insights or work around to
>>         simulate envelope thermal bridges in e-quest.
>>         Sincerely,
>>         LPL
>>         -------------------------------------------------------------
>>         Luis Pérez-Lombard
>>         Dr. Ingeniero Industrial
>>         Profesor Contratado Doctor
>>         Departamento de Ingeniería Energética
>>         Escuela Superior de Ingenieros
>>         Universidad de Sevilla
>>         Camino de los Descubrimientos s/n
>>         41092 SEVILLA
>>         Tfno.:      95.448.72.56
>>         Fax:         95.446.31.53
>>         e-mail: lpl at us.es <mailto:lpl at us.es>
>>         -------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         Bldg-sim mailing list
>>         http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
>>         To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message
>>         to BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>>         <mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
>>
>>         ________________________________
>>
>>
>>         You are receiving this communication because you are listed
>>         as a current WSP contact. Should you have any questions
>>         regarding WSP’s electronic communications policy, please
>>         consult our Anti-Spam Commitment www.wspgroup.com/casl
>>         <http://www.wspgroup.com/casl>. For any concern or if you
>>         believe you should not be receiving this message, please
>>         forward this message to us at caslcompliance at wspgroup.com
>>         <mailto:caslcompliance at wspgroup.com><mailto:caslcompliance at wspgroup.com>
>>         so that we can promptly address your request. This message is
>>         intended only for the use of the individual or entity to
>>         which it is addressed, and may contain information which is
>>         privileged, confidential, proprietary or exempt from
>>         disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended
>>         recipient or the person responsible for delivering the
>>         message to the intended recipient, you are strictly
>>         prohibited from disclosing, distributing, copying or in any
>>         way using this message. If you have received this
>>         communication in error, please notify the sender, and destroy
>>         and delete any copies you may have received.
>>
>>         WSP provides professional land surveying services through the
>>         following entities: WSP Surveys (AB) Limited Partnership and
>>         WSP Surveys (BC) Limited Partnership
>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         Bldg-sim mailing list
>>         http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
>>         To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message
>>         to BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>>         <mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
>>
>>         -- 
>>
>>         James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
>>         CEO/President
>>         The Building Performance Team Inc.
>>         1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504
>>
>>         Direct: 616.450.8653
>>         jim at buildingperformanceteam.com
>>
>>         Website <http://buildingperformanceteamcom>l LinkedIn
>>         <https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413>
>>
>>         Fail faster!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>
>>         Bldg-sim mailing list
>>
>>         http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
>>
>>         To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message toBLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>>         <mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> You are receiving this communication because you are listed as a 
>> current WSP contact. Should you have any questions regarding WSP’s 
>> electronic communications policy, please consult our Anti-Spam 
>> Commitment www.wspgroup.com/casl. For any concern or if you believe 
>> you should not be receiving this message, please forward this message 
>> to us at caslcompliance at wspgroup.com 
>> <mailto:caslcompliance at wspgroup.com> so that we can promptly address 
>> your request. This message is intended only for the use of the 
>> individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain 
>> information which is privileged, confidential, proprietary or exempt 
>> from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended 
>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the message to the 
>> intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, 
>> distributing, copying or in any way using this message. If you have 
>> received this communication in error, please notify the sender, and 
>> destroy and delete any copies you may have received.
>>
>> WSP provides professional land surveying services through the 
>> following entities: WSP Surveys (AB) Limited Partnership and WSP 
>> Surveys (BC) Limited Partnership
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20160129/dee916bb/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/png
Size: 6574 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20160129/dee916bb/attachment-0003.png>


More information about the Bldg-sim mailing list