[Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on dates).
Joe Huang
yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
Fri Jan 29 09:12:58 PST 2016
(modified from previous post but replacing the attachment with a link to
reduce file size)
On 1/29/2016 8:46 AM, Joe Huang wrote:
> Christopher,
>
> I took a brief scroll through the link that you provided, and yes,
> there's a lot of information there. I haven't yet found a technical
> description of the methodology, but I did get to the tables with
> pretty colored pictures of wall sections and their computed U-values.
> I hope there's more information on the dynamic characteristics of
> these wall sections, i.e., thermal mass, diffusivity, etc., since
> those would be needed to model them correctly in a simulation program.
>
> In terms of comparing the methodologies, as you've suggested, one
> place to start would be simply comparing the steady-state U-values
> derived for the same wall constructions. I've done some digging on my
> end and found an old 1997 User News newsletter with a brief
> description of the 2-D response factor work I did with Fred Winkelmann
> and Vladimir Bazjanac and a table listing the R-values for the 76
> steel-frame wall sections modeled. See user news here:
http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com/downloads/Usr_News_97-3.pdf
> The newsletter is interesting in other ways, as well, including the
> announcement of the 5th IBPSA conference to be held in the Czech
> Republic :-) .
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Huang
> White Box Technologies, Inc.
> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
> Moraga CA 94556
> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
> (o) (925)388-0265
> (c) (510)928-2683
> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
> On 1/29/2016 5:18 AM, Jones, Christopher wrote:
>>
>> Joe,
>>
>> It would be very interesting to compare the methodologies in your
>> paper with the results of the Morrison Herschfield research. BC Hydro
>> published that detailed research.
>>
>> https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html?WT.mc_id=rd_thermalguide#thermal
>>
>> cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0**
>>
>> *Christopher Jones,***P.Eng./
>> /Senior Engineer
>>
>> **
>>
>> *WSP Canada Inc.*
>>
>> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>>
>> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
>> T +1 416-644-4226
>>
>> F +1 416-487-9766
>>
>> C +1 416-697-0056
>>
>> www.wspgroup.com <http://www.wspgroup.com/> //
>>
>> *From:*Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Joe Huang
>> *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 5:44 AM
>> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or
>> DOE2 (minor correction on dates).
>>
>> The work I did for the CEC was done in 1996 (as indicated in the
>> report title), not 2000-2002, which was a follow-on effort to do 2-D
>> foundation heat flows.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Joe Huang
>> White Box Technologies, Inc.
>> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
>> Moraga CA 94556
>> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
>> <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
>> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
>> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
>> (o) (925)388-0265
>> (c) (510)928-2683
>> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>>
>> On 1/29/2016 2:41 AM, Joe Huang wrote:
>>
>> I actually helped to develop a method to model thermal bridges in
>> DOE-2 back in 1986 that has never been widely disseminated,
>> although I still find it the most practical way to model 2-D heat
>> flows in whole-building simulations.
>>
>> This method uses a two-dimensional finite-element program
>> (WALFERFN) that calculates one-dimensional equivalent response
>> factors which are written directly into the DOE-2 layers library
>> (BDLLIB.DAT), which can then be called by DOE-2 just like any
>> other response factor in the library.
>>
>> I've always used this technique in my residential modeling, with
>> the added benefit of not needing to input duplicate sets of wall
>> layers for the stud and non-stud portions, which measurably
>> simplifies the models and makes them easier to read. The last
>> time I did significant work on this subject was in 2000-2002,
>> when I created for the California Energy Commission a library of
>> over 100 wall layers with metal framing and thus considerable
>> thermal bridging. I compared the wall assembly U-values to that
>> calculated by ORNL's Heating-7 program, and they were right on.
>> Unfortunately, a few years after the project was completed, the
>> Commission decided to move to EnergyPlus as their reference
>> program, and so this work was effectively abandoned.
>>
>> For more information on this technique, i.e., creating 2-D
>> response factors, please see this report:
>> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com/PAPERS/96_12_YJH_2Drespfacs_CEC_rpt.pdf
>>
>> If there's anyone who's still running DOE-2 in batch, rather than
>> just the eQUEST interface, this procedure should be quite
>> understandable. Just e-mail me and I'll be happy to give you a
>> copy of the WALFERFN program and some sample input files.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Joe Huang
>>
>> White Box Technologies, Inc.
>>
>> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
>>
>> Moraga CA 94556
>>
>> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
>> <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
>>
>> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
>>
>> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
>>
>> (o) (925)388-0265
>>
>> (c) (510)928-2683
>>
>> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>>
>> On 1/28/2016 1:22 PM, Jim Dirkes wrote:
>>
>> There is also a landmark study by Morrison Hershfield in
>> Canada which I don't have access to at the moment that should
>> provide guidance.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Marcus Sheffer
>> <sheffer at sevengroup.com <mailto:sheffer at sevengroup.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Follow the guidance in ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix A to determine
>> the whole assembly values.
>>
>> Marcus Sheffer
>> 7group
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jones, Christopher
>> [mailto:Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 8:30 AM
>> To: Luis Peréz-Lombard; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest
>> or DOE2
>>
>> Hello Sir,
>> eQuest does not have the capability to directly model thermal
>> bridges. The typical methodology is to calculate the
>> effective U-value of the insulation/thermal bridge layer when
>> building your layers for the construction. BC Hydro has
>> published significant research on building envelope thermal
>> bridging. See the lower portion of the webpage:
>> https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html#thermal
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
>> Senior Engineer
>>
>> WSP Canada Inc.
>> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
>> T +1 416-644-4226 <tel:%2B1%20416-644-4226>
>> F +1 416-487-9766 <tel:%2B1%20416-487-9766>
>> C +1 416-697-0056 <tel:%2B1%20416-697-0056>
>>
>> www.wspgroup.com <http://www.wspgroup.com>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of
>> Luis Peréz-Lombard
>> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 4:08 AM
>> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
>> Subject: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2
>>
>> Dear building simulation colleagues,
>> I would very much appreciate any insights or work around to
>> simulate envelope thermal bridges in e-quest.
>> Sincerely,
>> LPL
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>> Luis Pérez-Lombard
>> Dr. Ingeniero Industrial
>> Profesor Contratado Doctor
>> Departamento de Ingeniería Energética
>> Escuela Superior de Ingenieros
>> Universidad de Sevilla
>> Camino de los Descubrimientos s/n
>> 41092 SEVILLA
>> Tfno.: 95.448.72.56
>> Fax: 95.446.31.53
>> e-mail: lpl at us.es <mailto:lpl at us.es>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>>
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>
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