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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/29/2016 8:46 AM, Joe Huang wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AB9761.9010005@whiteboxtechnologies.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
Christopher, <br>
<br>
I took a brief scroll through the link that you provided, and yes,
there's a lot of information there. I haven't yet found a
technical description of the methodology, but I did get to the
tables with pretty colored pictures of wall sections and their
computed U-values. I hope there's more information on the dynamic
characteristics of these wall sections, i.e., thermal mass,
diffusivity, etc., since those would be needed to model them
correctly in a simulation program. <br>
<br>
In terms of comparing the methodologies, as you've suggested, one
place to start would be simply comparing the steady-state U-values
derived for the same wall constructions. I've done some digging on
my end and found an old 1997 User News newsletter with a brief
description of the 2-D response factor work I did with Fred
Winkelmann and Vladimir Bazjanac and a table listing the R-values
for the 76 steel-frame wall sections modeled. See user news here:</blockquote>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com/downloads/Usr_News_97-3.pdf">http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com/downloads/Usr_News_97-3.pdf</a><br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AB9761.9010005@whiteboxtechnologies.com"
type="cite">The newsletter is interesting in other ways, as well,
including the announcement of the 5th IBPSA conference to be held
in the Czech Republic :-) .<br>
<br>
Joe<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
Moraga CA 94556
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com">http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com">http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/29/2016 5:18 AM, Jones,
Christopher wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:25F861E695EA99478F9790869A57C7D4A8B0635F@catormsx02"
type="cite">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered
medium)">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Joe,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>It would be very interesting to
compare the methodologies in your paper with the results
of the Morrison Herschfield research. BC Hydro published
that detailed research. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html?WT.mc_id=rd_thermalguide#thermal">https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html?WT.mc_id=rd_thermalguide#thermal</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><img id="Picture_x0020_2"
src="cid:part5.02060704.02070502@whiteboxtechnologies.com"
alt="cid:image003.png@01D09C46.E75BA0D0" height="43"
width="108"></span><b><span></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>Christopher Jones,</span></b><b><span></span></b><span>P.Eng.<i>
<br>
</i></span><span lang="EN-CA">Senior Engineer</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-CA"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-CA">WSP Canada Inc.</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">2300 Yonge Street,
Suite 2300</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">Toronto, ON M4P 1E4</span><span
lang="EN-CA"><br>
</span><span lang="EN-CA">T +1 416-644-4226</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">F +1 416-487-9766</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">C +1 416-697-0056</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.wspgroup.com/"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.wspgroup.com">www.wspgroup.com</a></a>
</span><i><span lang="EN-CA"></span></i></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>From:</span></b><span>
Bldg-sim [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joe Huang<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 29, 2016 5:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL
BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on
dates).</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The work I did for the CEC was done in
1996 (as indicated in the report title), not 2000-2002,
which was a follow-on effort to do 2-D foundation heat
flows.<br>
<br>
Joe<br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>Joe Huang </pre>
<pre>White Box Technologies, Inc.</pre>
<pre>346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A</pre>
<pre>Moraga CA 94556</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com">http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com">http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a></pre>
<pre>(o) (925)388-0265</pre>
<pre>(c) (510)928-2683</pre>
<pre>"building energy simulations at your fingertips"</pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 1/29/2016 2:41 AM, Joe Huang wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">I actually helped to develop a method
to model thermal bridges in DOE-2 back in 1986 that has
never been widely disseminated, although I still find it
the most practical way to model 2-D heat flows in
whole-building simulations.<br>
<br>
This method uses a two-dimensional finite-element program
(WALFERFN) that calculates one-dimensional equivalent
response factors which are written directly into the DOE-2
layers library (BDLLIB.DAT), which can then be called by
DOE-2 just like any other response factor in the library.<br>
<br>
I've always used this technique in my residential
modeling, with the added benefit of not needing to input
duplicate sets of wall layers for the stud and non-stud
portions, which measurably simplifies the models and
makes them easier to read. The last time I did
significant work on this subject was in 2000-2002, when I
created for the California Energy Commission a library of
over 100 wall layers with metal framing and thus
considerable thermal bridging. I compared the wall
assembly U-values to that calculated by ORNL's Heating-7
program, and they were right on. Unfortunately, a few
years after the project was completed, the Commission
decided to move to EnergyPlus as their reference program,
and so this work was effectively abandoned.<br>
<br>
For more information on this technique, i.e., creating 2-D
response factors, please see this report:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com/PAPERS/96_12_YJH_2Drespfacs_CEC_rpt.pdf">http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com/PAPERS/96_12_YJH_2Drespfacs_CEC_rpt.pdf</a><br>
<br>
If there's anyone who's still running DOE-2 in batch,
rather than just the eQUEST interface, this procedure
should be quite understandable. Just e-mail me and I'll
be happy to give you a copy of the WALFERFN program and
some sample input files. <br>
<br>
Joe <br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>Joe Huang </pre>
<pre>White Box Technologies, Inc.</pre>
<pre>346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A</pre>
<pre>Moraga CA 94556</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com">http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com">http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a></pre>
<pre>(o) (925)388-0265</pre>
<pre>(c) (510)928-2683</pre>
<pre>"building energy simulations at your fingertips"</pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 1/28/2016 1:22 PM, Jim Dirkes
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There is also a landmark study by
Morrison Hershfield in Canada which I don't have
access to at the moment that should provide
guidance.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM,
Marcus Sheffer <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com">sheffer@sevengroup.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Follow the guidance in ASHRAE
90.1 Appendix A to determine the whole assembly
values.<br>
<br>
Marcus Sheffer<br>
7group<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Jones, Christopher [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:Christopher.r.Jones@wspgroup.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Christopher.r.Jones@wspgroup.com">Christopher.r.Jones@wspgroup.com</a></a>]<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 8:30 AM<br>
To: Luis Peréz-Lombard; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN
e-quest or DOE2<br>
<br>
Hello Sir,<br>
eQuest does not have the capability to directly
model thermal bridges. The typical methodology is to
calculate the effective U-value of the
insulation/thermal bridge layer when building your
layers for the construction. BC Hydro has published
significant research on building envelope thermal
bridging. See the lower portion of the webpage:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html#thermal"
target="_blank">https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html#thermal</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Christopher Jones, P.Eng.<br>
Senior Engineer<br>
<br>
WSP Canada Inc.<br>
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300<br>
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4<br>
T <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20416-644-4226">+1 416-644-4226</a><br>
F <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20416-487-9766">+1 416-487-9766</a><br>
C <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20416-697-0056">+1 416-697-0056</a><br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.wspgroup.com" target="_blank">www.wspgroup.com</a></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Bldg-sim [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Luis Peréz-Lombard<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 4:08 AM<br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN
e-quest or DOE2<br>
<br>
Dear building simulation colleagues,<br>
I would very much appreciate any insights or
work around to simulate envelope thermal bridges
in e-quest.<br>
Sincerely,<br>
LPL<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Luis Pérez-Lombard<br>
Dr. Ingeniero Industrial<br>
Profesor Contratado Doctor<br>
Departamento de Ingeniería Energética<br>
Escuela Superior de Ingenieros<br>
Universidad de Sevilla<br>
Camino de los Descubrimientos s/n<br>
41092 SEVILLA<br>
Tfno.: 95.448.72.56<br>
Fax: 95.446.31.53<br>
e-mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lpl@us.es">lpl@us.es</a><br>
-------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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