[Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on dates).

Jones, Christopher Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com
Fri Jan 29 05:18:17 PST 2016


Joe,
It would be very interesting to compare the methodologies in your paper with the results of the Morrison Herschfield research. BC Hydro published that detailed research.

https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html?WT.mc_id=rd_thermalguide#thermal

[cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0]
Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226
F +1 416-487-9766
C +1 416-697-0056

www.wspgroup.com<http://www.wspgroup.com/>

From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Joe Huang
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 5:44 AM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on dates).

The work I did for the CEC was done in 1996 (as indicated in the report title), not 2000-2002, which was a follow-on effort to do 2-D foundation heat flows.

Joe


Joe Huang

White Box Technologies, Inc.

346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A

Moraga CA 94556

yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com<mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>

http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data

http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com

(o) (925)388-0265

(c) (510)928-2683

"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
On 1/29/2016 2:41 AM, Joe Huang wrote:
I actually helped to develop a method to model thermal bridges in DOE-2 back in 1986 that has never been widely disseminated, although I still find it the most practical way to model 2-D heat flows in whole-building simulations.

This method uses a two-dimensional finite-element program (WALFERFN) that calculates one-dimensional equivalent response factors which are written directly into the DOE-2 layers library (BDLLIB.DAT), which can then be called by DOE-2 just like any other response factor in the library.

I've always used this technique in my residential modeling, with the added benefit of not needing to input duplicate sets of wall layers for the stud and non-stud portions, which measurably simplifies the  models and makes them easier to read.  The last time I did significant work on this subject was in 2000-2002, when I created for the California Energy Commission a library of over 100 wall layers with metal framing and thus considerable thermal bridging.  I compared the wall assembly U-values to that calculated by ORNL's Heating-7 program, and they were right on.  Unfortunately, a few years after the project was completed, the Commission decided to move to EnergyPlus as their reference program, and so this work was effectively abandoned.

For more information on this technique, i.e., creating 2-D response factors, please see this report:
http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com/PAPERS/96_12_YJH_2Drespfacs_CEC_rpt.pdf

If there's anyone who's still running DOE-2 in batch, rather than just the eQUEST interface, this procedure should be quite understandable.  Just e-mail me and I'll be happy to give you a copy of the WALFERFN program and some sample input files.

Joe


Joe Huang

White Box Technologies, Inc.

346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A

Moraga CA 94556

yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com<mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>

http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data

http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com

(o) (925)388-0265

(c) (510)928-2683

"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
On 1/28/2016 1:22 PM, Jim Dirkes wrote:
There is also a landmark study by Morrison Hershfield in Canada which I don't have access to at the moment that should provide guidance.

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Marcus Sheffer <sheffer at sevengroup.com<mailto:sheffer at sevengroup.com>> wrote:
Follow the guidance in ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix A to determine the whole assembly values.

Marcus Sheffer
7group

-----Original Message-----
From: Jones, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com<mailto:Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com>]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 8:30 AM
To: Luis Peréz-Lombard; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2

Hello Sir,
eQuest does not have the capability to directly model thermal bridges. The typical methodology is to calculate the effective U-value of the insulation/thermal bridge layer when building your layers for the construction.  BC Hydro has published significant research on building  envelope thermal bridging. See the lower portion of the webpage:
https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html#thermal




Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226<tel:%2B1%20416-644-4226>
F +1 416-487-9766<tel:%2B1%20416-487-9766>
C +1 416-697-0056<tel:%2B1%20416-697-0056>

www.wspgroup.com<http://www.wspgroup.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Luis Peréz-Lombard
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 4:08 AM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2

Dear building simulation colleagues,
I would very much appreciate any insights or work around to simulate envelope thermal bridges in e-quest.
Sincerely,
LPL
-------------------------------------------------------------
Luis Pérez-Lombard
Dr. Ingeniero Industrial
Profesor Contratado Doctor
Departamento de Ingeniería Energética
Escuela Superior de Ingenieros
Universidad de Sevilla
Camino de los Descubrimientos s/n
41092 SEVILLA
Tfno.:      95.448.72.56
Fax:         95.446.31.53
e-mail:    lpl at us.es<mailto:lpl at us.es>
-------------------------------------------------------------

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WSP provides professional land surveying services through the following entities: WSP Surveys (AB) Limited Partnership and WSP Surveys (BC) Limited Partnership
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