[Equest-users] How do I get unmet cooling/heating hours to showup in my sim file BEPU report?
Chris Jones
cj at enersave.ca
Mon Apr 19 14:27:47 PDT 2010
I had assumed that the SS-R report showed the
number of under heated and under cooled hours and
was sufficient for LEED submissions?
At 05:04 PM 4/19/2010, Nick Caton wrote:
>Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
>Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative";
> boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAE003.EBF127E7"
>
>Looks exciting
I think I know what we’re looking at
>
>Copied below is a (lengthy) discussion which
>essentially concluded with one of Scott
>Criswell’s typical answers – hammering the
>confusion out of us all =). In it, he mentions
>the plan to include this helpful information in
>future DOE2/eQuest releases
hopefully this is coming sooner than later!
>
>~Nick
>
>cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB
>
>
>NICK CATON, E.I.T.
>PROJECT ENGINEER
>25501 west valley parkway
>olathe ks 66061
>direct 913 344.0036
>fax 913 345.0617
>Check out our new web-site @ <www.smithboucher.htm>www.smithboucher.com
>
>From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Demba Ndiaye
>Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 3:01 PM
>To: Carol Gardner; Bishop, Bill
>Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] How do I get unmet
>cooling/heating hours toshow up in my sim file BEPU report?
>
>Well, this seems new; never seen it. A quick
>glance at my eQuest reports tells me that the
>3.63 – build 6510 version I have runs with
>DOE-2.2-47d. I see here “h”, so it looks like the new one (or a test version).
>
>Anyway, this is the info we need for LEED EAc1
>Template. And we cannot get it from the
>SS-F/SS-R ‘cause they would include the
>coincident hours, while this one does not seem to.
>
>______________
>Demba NDIAYE
>
>From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Carol Gardner
>Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 3:14 PM
>To: Bishop, Bill
>Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] How do I get unmet
>cooling/heating hours to show up in my sim file BEPU report?
>
>Quick first take. It looks like the numbers that
>would come from an SS-F/SS-R report summed up. I have never seen this either.
>
>Maybe you can turn it off somehow? What do the above referenced reports show?
>
>Carol
>On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Bishop, Bill
><<mailto:wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com> wrote:
>I have an eQUESTion:
>
>How do I get this to show up in my sim files? Is
>this a newer installation? All I ever get is the
>first two “Percent of Hours” lines. (And it’s
>not because I always have zero unmet hours
)
>
>Thanks,
>Bill
>
>[]
>
>
>
>William Bishop, EIT, BEMP, LEED® AP | Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP
>Mechanical Engineer
>
>134 South Fitzhugh Street
>Rochester, NY 14608
>T: (585) 325-6004 Ext. 114
>F: (585) 325-6005
><mailto:wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com
>www.pathfinder-ea.com
>P Please strive to live sustainably.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>\From:
>equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick Caton
>Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 7:33 AM
>To: Scott Criswell; steve.gates at doe2.com
>Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>Scott,
>
>Wanted to express thanks I’m certain many of us
>in the community share for you, Steve Gates and
>the rest of the DOE-2 team. I know I’m not the
>only one looking forward very much to this new feature!
>
>~Nick
>
>cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB
>
>
>NICK CATON, E.I.T.
>PROJECT ENGINEER
>25501 west valley parkway
>olathe ks 66061
>direct 913 344.0036
>fax 913 345.0617
>Check out our new web-site @ <www.smithboucher.htm>www.smithboucher.com
>
>From: Scott Criswell [mailto:scott.criswell at doe2.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:09 AM
>To: Rosenberg, Michael I
>Cc: ashu gupta; Nick Caton; Crockett, Jim;
>Kendra Tupper; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>I can confirm Mike's understanding of the
>DOE-2/eQUEST results. To get the correct number
>of hours of unmet loads, people should MULTIPLY
>the Percent hours outside throttling range from
>BEPS or BEPU by the total annual "hours fans on" listed in report SS-E.
>
>One other comment re: Ashu's write-up - I
>believe that (for DOE-2/eQUEST) a zone
>temperature has to be more than one degree
>outside the throttling range for that hour to be
>counted as an hour outside throttling range. So
>for a zone with a heating thermostat setpoint of
>72 and a 2 degree throttling range (=> 71-73
>degree "throttling range"), the zone temperature
>would have to be LESS THAN 70 in order for that hour to be counted.
>
>related info -
>We are contemplating a change to the Air-Side
>HVAC Summary view in the eQUEST interface to
>report this total number of hours as opposed to
>just the percent in the totals section at the bottom of the report.
>We have also just in the past several days
>(thanks to the efforts of Steve Gates) added
>precision to the percent hours outside
>throttling range reported on BEPS & BEPU and
>ALSO added separate reporting of hours any zone
>is either under cooled or under heated, intended
>for reporting to LEED submission
>templates. Assuming no further changes (which
>is certainly not out of the question), future
>releases of DOE-2/eQUEST will report the following in the BEPS & BEPU reports:
> PERCENT OF HOURS ANY SYSTEM ZONE OUTSIDE OF THROTTLING RANGE = 4.45
> PERCENT OF HOURS ANY PLANT LOAD NOT SATISFIED = 0.00
> HOURS ANY ZONE ABOVE COOLING THROTTLING RANGE = 98
> HOURS ANY ZONE BELOW HEATING THROTTLING RANGE = 25
>
>- Scott
>
>
>Rosenberg, Michael I wrote:
>Ashu,
>
>I am in agreement with everything you stated except possibly this;
>
>“When percentage of unmet is specified, than
>this is the percentage of total number of hours
>(1 year- 8760 hours) for which the simulation is
>performed (not just the occupied hours)”
>
>My understanding is that some simulation
>programs (DOE2 and eQuest in particular) report
>this as a percentage of hours that the fan is
>running. I could be wrong, and I am sure some of
>you DOE2 experts can comment on what is reported in the DOE2 BEPS report.
>
>Mike
>
>
>__________________________
>Michael Rosenberg
>Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
>ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
>Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
>2032 Todd Street
>Eugene, OR 97405
>(541) 844-1960
><mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov
>www.pnl.gov
>From: ashu gupta
>[<mailto:kce2 at kamalcogentenergy.com>mailto:kce2 at kamalcogentenergy.com]
>Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 10:17 PM
>To: Rosenberg, Michael I; 'Nick Caton'; 'Crockett, Jim'; 'Kendra Tupper'
>Cc: <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>Dear All,
>
>Explanation of Unmet Hours is as follows:
>
>Unmet Hours:
>Unmet hours of a building are the summation of
>the number of hours when the heating or the
>cooling set point temperature of a zone is not
>met either by the HVAC system or by the plant.
>
>Understanding/Interpreting/Calculating the number of unmet hours:
> * Unmet hour is for a particular zone when
> the zone indoor temperature is higher than the
> heating or cooling set point specified in that hour.
> * The number or the percentage of unmet
> hours in a building is usually given as one of the outputs of the simulation.
> * Zone wise unmet can also be read from the
> various output files provided by the software used for simulation.
>(Example:
>Visual DOE: “SS-J System Peak Heating and Cooling Days” report &
>Energy Plus: Output Variable, “Time Cooling Set point Not met”)
> * When two zones are unmet at the same hour,
> this will count to one unmet hour for the building.
> * When two zones have unmet hours during
> different non overlapping times of a day, the
> total number of unmet hours in that day is the
> summation of these unmet hours of each zone.
> This total for the year should be considered as
> the total unmet hours of the building.
>Example:
>When each zone is unmet in the specified hours as beside,
>
>Zone 1 unmet during: 6 8 14 16
>Zone 2 unmet during: 6 8 12 16
>Zone 3 unmet during: 7 8 12 13
>
>Total number of unmet hours of the building: 7 hrs and not 12hrs.
>6 7 8 12 13 14 16
>
> * When percentage of unmet is specified,
> than this is the percentage of total number of
> hours (1 year- 8760 hours) for which the
> simulation is performed (not just the occupied hours)
> * As per ASHRAE 90.1-2004, the unmet hours
> of the total building should be less than or
> equal to 300 hours and the difference in the
> base case and proposed case should be less than or equal to 50 hours.
> * If unmet load hours in the proposed
> building exceed the unmet load hours in the
> baseline building by more than 50, then the
> size of equipment in the baseline building
> shall be reduced incrementally, until the condition is satisfied.
>
>
>Thanks
>
>Ashu Gupta,
>Project Engineer,
>Kamal Cogent Energy,
>Kamal Ratan Chanbers 1st Floor,
>Opp. GPO, M.I. Road,
>Jaipur 302001
>Ph 141 2373185(W)
>Ph 9251665008(M)
><mailto:kce2 at kamalcogentenergy.com>kce2 at kamalcogentenergy.com
>www.kamalcogentenergy.com
>
>----------
>From:
><mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org]
>On Behalf Of Rosenberg, Michael I
>Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:07 AM
>To: Nick Caton; Crockett, Jim; Kendra Tupper
>Cc: <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>I think eQuest and any DOE2 based software does
>report the hours of loads not being met as
>required by Appendix G. In the BEPS report it
>gives “PERCENT OF HOURS ANY SYSTEM ZONE OUTSIDE
>OF THROTTLING RANGE”. My understanding of this
>number is that it is a percentage of scheduled
>fan run-time hours, so some calculation may be necessary.
>
>__________________________
>Michael Rosenberg
>Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
>ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
>Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
>2032 Todd Street
>Eugene, OR 97405
>(541) 844-1960
><mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov
>www.pnl.gov
>From: Nick Caton
>[<mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com>mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com]
>Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 8:20 PM
>To: Rosenberg, Michael I; Crockett, Jim; Kendra Tupper
>Cc: <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>Mike,
>
>I appreciate you bringing this up. This
>definition drives straight to the heart of
>defining the issue-at-hand
Since I kinda
>presented both sides of the issue at once – I’d
>like to clarify where I stand regarding what the
>correct interpretation should be.
>
>The logic is as follows: If a modeled year has
>8,760 hours, can there be 10,000 unmet load
>hours? By strict reading of the standard’s
>definition below, I would put my foot down
>stating there can only be 8,760, at most.
>
>By common practice however, it appears a
>majority (myself included) sum unmet
>cooling/heating hours between the zones, even if
>they should fall on the same modeled hour,
>against the intent of the standard.
>
>My pure speculation (for what it’s worth, as a
>young EIT) is this practice developed because
>eQuest BDL reports don’t present the crunched
>numbers in a way that makes the sum of unmet
>load hours, as intended by 90.1, easy to
>determine. I wouldn’t be shocked to learn other
>energy modeling software packages generate LEED
>compliance summaries featuring unmet load hour
>totals in sync with the real intent of ASHRAE 90.1.
>
>If there’s anything I’ve learned from going out
>on a limb, it’s that I’m sure to learn something whether I fall or not!
>
>~Nick
>
>cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB
>
>
>NICK CATON, E.I.T.
>PROJECT ENGINEER
>25501 west valley parkway
>olathe ks 66061
>direct 913 344.0036
>fax 913 345.0617
>Check out our new web-site @ <www.smithboucher.htm>www.smithboucher.com
>
>From: Rosenberg, Michael I
>[<mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov]
>Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 7:39 PM
>To: Nick Caton; Crockett, Jim;
><mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>Nick,
>
>Your interpretation is the correct one.
>According to the definitions in Standard 90.1.
>unmet load hour: an hour in which one or more
>zones is outside of the thermostat setpoint range.
>
>
>Mike
>__________________________
>Michael Rosenberg
>Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
>ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
>Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
>2032 Todd Street
>Eugene, OR 97405
>(541) 844-1960
><mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov
>www.pnl.gov
>From:
><mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick Caton
>Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 5:33 PM
>To: Crockett, Jim;
><mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>Jim,
>
>That’s actually a really good question that I
>was afraid to ask when I first encountered it –
>kudos to you! I’ve currently resolved to follow
>what others seemed to be doing within and
>outside of my office: Sum up all unmet hours
>for cooling and heating between the zones just
>as you describe. In your example, I’d agree
>that the unmet hours of your 301 zone building total 301.
>
>I do agree that this doesn’t seem intuitively to
>be the intent of the standard, however between
>what is suggested within 90.1, the LEED
>handbook, and the LEED credit templates – I
>honestly can’t see any clear indication either
>way on which is the appropriate interpretation.
>
>I think the appropriate metric for ensuring
>appropriately sized systems should be something
>like: “hours of the modeled year in which at
>least one zone has an unmet cooling/heating
>load,” but I think that was avoided by all
>concerned parties because it’s too wordy!
>
>My acting interpretation, again referencing your
>example, is that all systems of your 301 zone
>example affecting the zones with unmet
>cooling/heating hours should have their
>heating/cooling/overall sizing capacity ratios
>increased incrementally until the design hours
>fall below 300 (and/or within 50 of the sum from
>the other model, depending on your situation).
>
>Afraid I’m only really adding to the discussion
>here without providing a solid answer. Would
>like to echo the desire to see anyone’s
>experiences that would help us know the “right”
>way to interpret this (in my case, specifically
>in the context of a LEED submittal).
>
>cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB
>
>
>NICK CATON, E.I.T.
>PROJECT ENGINEER
>25501 west valley parkway
>olathe ks 66061
>direct 913 344.0036
>fax 913 345.0617
>Check out our new web-site @ <www.smithboucher.htm>www.smithboucher.com
>
>From:
><mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Crockett, Jim
>Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 4:27 PM
>To: <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
>
>Ashrae 90.1 (2004) Appendix G3.1.2.2 requires a
>baseline building to have less than 300 unmet
>hours. What exactly does this mean?
>
>To illustrate my question: assume you have a
>building with 301 zones, and each zone has 1
>unmet hour per year. This gives you a total of
>301 unmet hours, and requires you to increase
>your baseline equipment capacity. But you could
>argue that, on average, the building has only 1 unmet hour per year.
>
>Have any of you run into this? Is it addressed in an addendum somewhere, etc?
>
>Any help is appreciated. Thanks,
>
>
>
>Jim Crockett, P.E.
>
>Senior Project Engineer
>Energy & Carbon Management
>Nexant, Inc.
>4021 S. 700 E., Suite 250
>Salt Lake City, Utah 84107
>
>(801) 639-5603 - phone
>(801) 266-4786 - fax
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Bldg-sim mailing list
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Chris Jones
14 Oneida Avenue
Toronto, ON M5J 2E3.
Tel. 416-203-7465
Fax. 416-946-1005
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