[Equest-users] How do I get unmet cooling/heating hours toshow up in my sim file BEPU report?

Nick Caton ncaton at smithboucher.com
Mon Apr 19 14:04:37 PDT 2010
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Looks exciting... I think I know what we're looking at...

 

Copied below is a (lengthy) discussion which essentially concluded with
one of Scott Criswell's typical answers - hammering the confusion out of
us all =).  In it, he mentions the plan to include this helpful
information in future DOE2/eQuest releases... hopefully this is coming
sooner than later!

 

~Nick

 

 

 

NICK CATON, E.I.T.

PROJECT ENGINEER

25501 west valley parkway

olathe ks 66061

direct 913 344.0036

fax 913 345.0617

Check out our new web-site @ www.smithboucher.com 

 

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Demba
Ndiaye
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 3:01 PM
To: Carol Gardner; Bishop, Bill
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] How do I get unmet cooling/heating hours
toshow up in my sim file BEPU report?

 

Well, this seems new; never seen it. A quick glance at my eQuest reports
tells me that the 3.63 - build 6510 version I have runs with
DOE-2.2-47d. I see here "h", so it looks like the new one (or a test
version).

 

Anyway, this is the info we need for LEED EAc1 Template. And we cannot
get it from the SS-F/SS-R 'cause they would include the coincident
hours, while this one does not seem to.

 

______________

Demba NDIAYE

 

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Carol
Gardner
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 3:14 PM
To: Bishop, Bill
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] How do I get unmet cooling/heating hours to
show up in my sim file BEPU report?

 

Quick first take. It looks like the numbers that would come from an
SS-F/SS-R report summed up. I have never seen this either. 

Maybe you can turn it off somehow? What do the above referenced reports
show?

Carol

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Bishop, Bill <
wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com> wrote:

I have an eQUESTion:

 

How do I get this to show up in my sim files? Is this a newer
installation? All I ever get is the first two "Percent of Hours" lines.
(And it's not because I always have zero unmet hours...)

 

Thanks,

Bill

 

 

 

 

William Bishop, EIT, BEMP, LEED(r) AP | Pathfinder Engineers &
Architects LLP

Mechanical Engineer

 

134 South Fitzhugh Street
Rochester, NY 14608
T: (585) 325-6004 Ext. 114
F: (585) 325-6005

wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com

www.pathfinder-ea.com

P Please strive to live sustainably.

 


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\From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick
Caton
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 7:33 AM
To: Scott Criswell; steve.gates at doe2.com
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours

 

Scott,

 

Wanted to express thanks I'm certain many of us in the community share
for you, Steve Gates and the rest of the DOE-2 team.  I know I'm not the
only one looking forward very much to this new feature!

 

~Nick

 



 

NICK CATON, E.I.T.

PROJECT ENGINEER

25501 west valley parkway

olathe ks 66061

direct 913 344.0036

fax 913 345.0617

Check out our new web-site @ www.smithboucher.com 

 

From: Scott Criswell [mailto:scott.criswell at doe2.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:09 AM
To: Rosenberg, Michael I
Cc: ashu gupta; Nick Caton; Crockett, Jim; Kendra Tupper;
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours

 

I can confirm Mike's understanding of the DOE-2/eQUEST results.  To get
the correct number of hours of unmet loads, people should MULTIPLY the
Percent hours outside throttling range from BEPS or BEPU by the total
annual "hours fans on" listed in report SS-E.

One other comment re: Ashu's write-up - I believe that (for
DOE-2/eQUEST) a zone temperature has to be more than one degree outside
the throttling range for that hour to be counted as an hour outside
throttling range.  So for a zone with a heating thermostat setpoint of
72 and a 2 degree throttling range (=> 71-73 degree "throttling range"),
the zone temperature would have to be LESS THAN 70 in order for that
hour to be counted.

related info -
We are contemplating a change to the Air-Side HVAC Summary view in the
eQUEST interface to report this total number of hours as opposed to just
the percent in the totals section at the bottom of the report.
We have also just in the past several days (thanks to the efforts of
Steve Gates) added precision to the percent hours outside throttling
range reported on BEPS & BEPU and ALSO added separate reporting of hours
any zone is either under cooled or under heated, intended for reporting
to LEED submission templates.  Assuming no further changes (which is
certainly not out of the question), future releases of DOE-2/eQUEST will
report the following in the BEPS & BEPU reports:
         PERCENT OF HOURS ANY SYSTEM ZONE OUTSIDE OF THROTTLING RANGE =
4.45
         PERCENT OF HOURS ANY PLANT LOAD NOT SATISFIED                =
0.00
         HOURS ANY ZONE ABOVE COOLING THROTTLING RANGE                =
98
         HOURS ANY ZONE BELOW HEATING THROTTLING RANGE                =
25

- Scott


Rosenberg, Michael I wrote: 

Ashu,

 

I am in agreement with everything you stated except possibly this;

 

"When percentage of unmet is specified, than this is the percentage of
total number of hours (1 year- 8760 hours) for which the simulation is
performed (not just the occupied hours)"

 

My understanding is that some simulation programs (DOE2 and eQuest in
particular) report this as a percentage of hours that the fan is
running. I could be wrong, and I am sure some of you DOE2 experts can
comment on what is reported in the DOE2 BEPS report.

 

Mike

 

 

__________________________ 

Michael Rosenberg 
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst 
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE 

Pacific Northwest National Laboratory 
2032 Todd Street 
Eugene, OR 97405 
(541) 844-1960 
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov 
www.pnl.gov 

From: ashu gupta [mailto:kce2 at kamalcogentenergy.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 10:17 PM
To: Rosenberg, Michael I; 'Nick Caton'; 'Crockett, Jim'; 'Kendra Tupper'
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours

 

Dear All,

 

Explanation of Unmet Hours is as follows:

 

Unmet Hours:

Unmet hours of a building are the summation of the number of hours when
the heating or the cooling set point temperature of a zone is not met
either by the HVAC system or by the plant.

Understanding/Interpreting/Calculating the number of unmet hours:

*	Unmet hour is for a particular zone when the zone indoor
temperature is higher than the heating or cooling set point specified in
that hour.
*	The number or the percentage of unmet hours in a building is
usually given as one of the outputs of the simulation.
*	Zone wise unmet can also be read from the various output files
provided by the software used for simulation.

(Example:  

Visual DOE: "SS-J System Peak Heating and Cooling Days" report &

Energy Plus: Output Variable, "Time Cooling Set point Not met")

*	When two zones are unmet at the same hour, this will count to
one unmet hour for the building.
*	When two zones have unmet hours during different non overlapping
times of a day, the total number of unmet hours in that day is the
summation of these unmet hours of each zone. This total for the year
should be considered as the total unmet hours of the building.

Example: 

When each zone is unmet in the specified hours as beside,

 

Zone 1 unmet during:                        6          8          14
16

Zone 2 unmet during:                        6          8          12
16

Zone 3 unmet during:                        7          8          12
13

            

Total number of unmet hours of the building: 7 hrs and not 12hrs.

6          7          8          12        13        14        16

 

*	When percentage of unmet is specified, than this is the
percentage of total number of hours (1 year- 8760 hours) for which the
simulation is performed (not just the occupied hours)
*	As per ASHRAE 90.1-2004, the unmet hours of the total building
should be less than or equal to 300 hours and the difference in the base
case and proposed case should be less than or equal to 50 hours.
*	If unmet load hours in the proposed building exceed the unmet
load hours in the baseline building by more than 50, then the size of
equipment in the baseline building shall be reduced incrementally, until
the condition is satisfied.

 

 

Thanks

Ashu Gupta,
Project Engineer,
Kamal Cogent Energy,
Kamal Ratan Chanbers 1st Floor,
Opp. GPO, M.I. Road,
Jaipur 302001
Ph 141 2373185(W)
Ph 9251665008(M)
kce2 at kamalcogentenergy.com <mailto:kce2 at kamalcogentenergy.com> 
www.kamalcogentenergy.com <http://www.kamalcogentenergy.com> 

________________________________

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [
mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Rosenberg,
Michael I
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:07 AM
To: Nick Caton; Crockett, Jim; Kendra Tupper
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours

 

I think eQuest and any DOE2 based software does report the hours of
loads not being met as required by Appendix G. In the BEPS report it
gives "PERCENT OF HOURS ANY SYSTEM ZONE OUTSIDE OF THROTTLING RANGE". My
understanding of this number is that it is a percentage of scheduled fan
run-time hours, so some calculation may be necessary.

 

__________________________ 

Michael Rosenberg 
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst 
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE 

Pacific Northwest National Laboratory 
2032 Todd Street 
Eugene, OR 97405 
(541) 844-1960 
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov 
www.pnl.gov 

From: Nick Caton [mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 8:20 PM
To: Rosenberg, Michael I; Crockett, Jim; Kendra Tupper
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours

 

Mike,

 

I appreciate you bringing this up.  This definition drives straight to
the heart of defining the issue-at-hand...  Since I kinda presented both
sides of the issue at once - I'd like to clarify where I stand regarding
what the correct interpretation should be.  

 

The logic is as follows:  If a modeled year has 8,760 hours, can there
be 10,000 unmet load hours?  By strict reading of the standard's
definition below, I would put my foot down stating there can only be
8,760, at most.  

 

By common practice however, it appears a majority (myself included) sum
unmet cooling/heating hours between the zones, even if they should fall
on the same modeled hour, against the intent of the standard.  

 

My pure speculation (for what it's worth, as a young EIT) is this
practice developed because eQuest BDL reports don't present the crunched
numbers in a way that makes the sum of unmet load hours, as intended by
90.1, easy to determine.  I wouldn't be shocked to learn other energy
modeling software packages generate LEED compliance summaries featuring
unmet load hour totals in sync with the real intent of ASHRAE 90.1.

 

If there's anything I've learned from going out on a limb, it's that I'm
sure to learn something whether I fall or not!

 

~Nick

 



 

NICK CATON, E.I.T.

PROJECT ENGINEER

25501 west valley parkway

olathe ks 66061

direct 913 344.0036

fax 913 345.0617

Check out our new web-site @ www.smithboucher.com 

 

From: Rosenberg, Michael I [mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov] 
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 7:39 PM
To: Nick Caton; Crockett, Jim; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours

 

Nick,

 

Your interpretation is the correct one. According to the definitions in
Standard 90.1.

unmet load hour: an hour in which one or more zones is outside of the
thermostat setpoint range.

 

 

Mike

__________________________ 

Michael Rosenberg 
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst 
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE 

Pacific Northwest National Laboratory 
2032 Todd Street 
Eugene, OR 97405 
(541) 844-1960 
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov 
www.pnl.gov 

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [
mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick Caton
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 5:33 PM
To: Crockett, Jim; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours

 

Jim,

 

That's actually a really good question that I was afraid to ask when I
first encountered it - kudos to you!  I've currently resolved to follow
what others seemed to be doing within and outside of my office:  Sum up
all unmet hours for cooling and heating between the zones just as you
describe.   In your example, I'd agree that the unmet hours of your 301
zone building total 301.

 

I do agree that this doesn't seem intuitively to be the intent of the
standard, however between what is suggested within 90.1, the LEED
handbook, and the LEED credit templates - I honestly can't see any clear
indication either way on which is the appropriate interpretation.  

 

I think the appropriate metric for ensuring appropriately sized systems
should be something like: "hours of the modeled year in which at least
one zone has an unmet cooling/heating load,"  but I think that was
avoided by all concerned parties because it's too wordy!

 

My acting interpretation, again referencing your example, is that all
systems of your 301 zone example affecting the zones with unmet
cooling/heating hours should have their heating/cooling/overall sizing
capacity ratios increased incrementally until the design hours fall
below 300 (and/or within 50 of the sum from the other model, depending
on your situation).

 

Afraid I'm only really adding to the discussion here without providing a
solid answer.  Would like to echo the desire to see anyone's experiences
that would help us know the "right" way to interpret this (in my case,
specifically in the context of a LEED submittal).

 



 

NICK CATON, E.I.T.

PROJECT ENGINEER

25501 west valley parkway

olathe ks 66061

direct 913 344.0036

fax 913 345.0617

Check out our new web-site @ www.smithboucher.com 

 

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [
mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Crockett,
Jim
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 4:27 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours

 

Ashrae 90.1 (2004) Appendix G3.1.2.2 requires a baseline building to
have less than 300 unmet hours.  What exactly does this mean?

 

To illustrate my question:  assume you have a building with 301 zones,
and each zone has 1 unmet hour per year.  This gives you a total of 301
unmet hours, and requires you to increase your baseline equipment
capacity.  But you could argue that, on average, the building has only 1
unmet hour per year.

 

Have any of you run into this?  Is it addressed in an addendum
somewhere, etc?

 

Any help is appreciated.  Thanks,

 

 

 

Jim Crockett, P.E.

 

Senior Project Engineer

Energy & Carbon Management

Nexant, Inc.

4021 S. 700 E., Suite 250

Salt Lake City, Utah 84107

 

(801) 639-5603 - phone

(801) 266-4786 - fax

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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