[Equest-users] How do I get unmet cooling/heating hours to showup in my sim file BEPU report?
Demba Ndiaye
Demba.Ndiaye at setty.com
Mon Apr 19 15:12:54 PDT 2010
If you sum them up, you will often end up with more hours than what the BEPS/BEPU reports show.
_____________
Demba NDIAYE
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Chris Jones
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 5:28 PM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] How do I get unmet cooling/heating hours to showup in my sim file BEPU report?
I had assumed that the SS-R report showed the number of under heated and under cooled hours and was sufficient for LEED submissions?
At 05:04 PM 4/19/2010, Nick Caton wrote:
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative";
boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAE003.EBF127E7"
Looks exciting... I think I know what we're looking at...
Copied below is a (lengthy) discussion which essentially concluded with one of Scott Criswell's typical answers - hammering the confusion out of us all =). In it, he mentions the plan to include this helpful information in future DOE2/eQuest releases... hopefully this is coming sooner than later!
~Nick
[cid:image001.jpg at 01CADFEB.EE8BFA20]
NICK CATON, E.I.T.
PROJECT ENGINEER
25501 west valley parkway
olathe ks 66061
direct 913 344.0036
fax 913 345.0617
Check out our new web-site @ www.smithboucher.com<www.smithboucher.htm>
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [ mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Demba Ndiaye
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 3:01 PM
To: Carol Gardner; Bishop, Bill
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] How do I get unmet cooling/heating hours toshow up in my sim file BEPU report?
Well, this seems new; never seen it. A quick glance at my eQuest reports tells me that the 3.63 - build 6510 version I have runs with DOE-2.2-47d. I see here "h", so it looks like the new one (or a test version).
Anyway, this is the info we need for LEED EAc1 Template. And we cannot get it from the SS-F/SS-R 'cause they would include the coincident hours, while this one does not seem to.
______________
Demba NDIAYE
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [ mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Carol Gardner
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 3:14 PM
To: Bishop, Bill
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] How do I get unmet cooling/heating hours to show up in my sim file BEPU report?
Quick first take. It looks like the numbers that would come from an SS-F/SS-R report summed up. I have never seen this either.
Maybe you can turn it off somehow? What do the above referenced reports show?
Carol
On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Bishop, Bill < wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com<mailto:wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>> wrote:
I have an eQUESTion:
How do I get this to show up in my sim files? Is this a newer installation? All I ever get is the first two "Percent of Hours" lines. (And it's not because I always have zero unmet hours...)
Thanks,
Bill
[cid:image002.jpg at 01CADFEB.EE8BFA20]
William Bishop, EIT, BEMP, LEED(r) AP | Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP
Mechanical Engineer
134 South Fitzhugh Street
Rochester, NY 14608
T: (585) 325-6004 Ext. 114
F: (585) 325-6005
wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com<mailto:wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>
www.pathfinder-ea.com<http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/>
P Please strive to live sustainably.
_______________________________________________
Equest-users mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG<mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
\From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [ mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick Caton
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 7:33 AM
To: Scott Criswell; steve.gates at doe2.com
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
Scott,
Wanted to express thanks I'm certain many of us in the community share for you, Steve Gates and the rest of the DOE-2 team. I know I'm not the only one looking forward very much to this new feature!
~Nick
[cid:image001.jpg at 01CADFEB.EE8BFA20]
NICK CATON, E.I.T.
PROJECT ENGINEER
25501 west valley parkway
olathe ks 66061
direct 913 344.0036
fax 913 345.0617
Check out our new web-site @ www.smithboucher.com<www.smithboucher.htm>
From: Scott Criswell [ mailto:scott.criswell at doe2.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:09 AM
To: Rosenberg, Michael I
Cc: ashu gupta; Nick Caton; Crockett, Jim; Kendra Tupper; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
I can confirm Mike's understanding of the DOE-2/eQUEST results. To get the correct number of hours of unmet loads, people should MULTIPLY the Percent hours outside throttling range from BEPS or BEPU by the total annual "hours fans on" listed in report SS-E.
One other comment re: Ashu's write-up - I believe that (for DOE-2/eQUEST) a zone temperature has to be more than one degree outside the throttling range for that hour to be counted as an hour outside throttling range. So for a zone with a heating thermostat setpoint of 72 and a 2 degree throttling range (=> 71-73 degree "throttling range"), the zone temperature would have to be LESS THAN 70 in order for that hour to be counted.
related info -
We are contemplating a change to the Air-Side HVAC Summary view in the eQUEST interface to report this total number of hours as opposed to just the percent in the totals section at the bottom of the report.
We have also just in the past several days (thanks to the efforts of Steve Gates) added precision to the percent hours outside throttling range reported on BEPS & BEPU and ALSO added separate reporting of hours any zone is either under cooled or under heated, intended for reporting to LEED submission templates. Assuming no further changes (which is certainly not out of the question), future releases of DOE-2/eQUEST will report the following in the BEPS & BEPU reports:
PERCENT OF HOURS ANY SYSTEM ZONE OUTSIDE OF THROTTLING RANGE = 4.45
PERCENT OF HOURS ANY PLANT LOAD NOT SATISFIED = 0.00
HOURS ANY ZONE ABOVE COOLING THROTTLING RANGE = 98
HOURS ANY ZONE BELOW HEATING THROTTLING RANGE = 25
- Scott
Rosenberg, Michael I wrote:
Ashu,
I am in agreement with everything you stated except possibly this;
"When percentage of unmet is specified, than this is the percentage of total number of hours (1 year- 8760 hours) for which the simulation is performed (not just the occupied hours)"
My understanding is that some simulation programs (DOE2 and eQuest in particular) report this as a percentage of hours that the fan is running. I could be wrong, and I am sure some of you DOE2 experts can comment on what is reported in the DOE2 BEPS report.
Mike
__________________________
Michael Rosenberg
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
2032 Todd Street
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 844-1960
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov<mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>
www.pnl.gov<http://www.pnl.gov/>
From: ashu gupta [ mailto:kce2 at kamalcogentenergy.com]
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 10:17 PM
To: Rosenberg, Michael I; 'Nick Caton'; 'Crockett, Jim'; 'Kendra Tupper'
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
Dear All,
Explanation of Unmet Hours is as follows:
Unmet Hours:
Unmet hours of a building are the summation of the number of hours when the heating or the cooling set point temperature of a zone is not met either by the HVAC system or by the plant.
Understanding/Interpreting/Calculating the number of unmet hours:
* Unmet hour is for a particular zone when the zone indoor temperature is higher than the heating or cooling set point specified in that hour.
* The number or the percentage of unmet hours in a building is usually given as one of the outputs of the simulation.
* Zone wise unmet can also be read from the various output files provided by the software used for simulation.
(Example:
Visual DOE: "SS-J System Peak Heating and Cooling Days" report &
Energy Plus: Output Variable, "Time Cooling Set point Not met")
* When two zones are unmet at the same hour, this will count to one unmet hour for the building.
* When two zones have unmet hours during different non overlapping times of a day, the total number of unmet hours in that day is the summation of these unmet hours of each zone. This total for the year should be considered as the total unmet hours of the building.
Example:
When each zone is unmet in the specified hours as beside,
Zone 1 unmet during: 6 8 14 16
Zone 2 unmet during: 6 8 12 16
Zone 3 unmet during: 7 8 12 13
Total number of unmet hours of the building: 7 hrs and not 12hrs.
6 7 8 12 13 14 16
* When percentage of unmet is specified, than this is the percentage of total number of hours (1 year- 8760 hours) for which the simulation is performed (not just the occupied hours)
* As per ASHRAE 90.1-2004, the unmet hours of the total building should be less than or equal to 300 hours and the difference in the base case and proposed case should be less than or equal to 50 hours.
* If unmet load hours in the proposed building exceed the unmet load hours in the baseline building by more than 50, then the size of equipment in the baseline building shall be reduced incrementally, until the condition is satisfied.
Thanks
Ashu Gupta,
Project Engineer,
Kamal Cogent Energy,
Kamal Ratan Chanbers 1st Floor,
Opp. GPO, M.I. Road,
Jaipur 302001
Ph 141 2373185(W)
Ph 9251665008(M)
kce2 at kamalcogentenergy.com<mailto:kce2 at kamalcogentenergy.com>
www.kamalcogentenergy.com<http://www.kamalcogentenergy.com/>
________________________________
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [ mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Rosenberg, Michael I
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:07 AM
To: Nick Caton; Crockett, Jim; Kendra Tupper
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
I think eQuest and any DOE2 based software does report the hours of loads not being met as required by Appendix G. In the BEPS report it gives "PERCENT OF HOURS ANY SYSTEM ZONE OUTSIDE OF THROTTLING RANGE". My understanding of this number is that it is a percentage of scheduled fan run-time hours, so some calculation may be necessary.
__________________________
Michael Rosenberg
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
2032 Todd Street
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 844-1960
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov<mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>
www.pnl.gov<http://www.pnl.gov/>
From: Nick Caton [ mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com]
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 8:20 PM
To: Rosenberg, Michael I; Crockett, Jim; Kendra Tupper
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
Mike,
I appreciate you bringing this up. This definition drives straight to the heart of defining the issue-at-hand... Since I kinda presented both sides of the issue at once - I'd like to clarify where I stand regarding what the correct interpretation should be.
The logic is as follows: If a modeled year has 8,760 hours, can there be 10,000 unmet load hours? By strict reading of the standard's definition below, I would put my foot down stating there can only be 8,760, at most.
By common practice however, it appears a majority (myself included) sum unmet cooling/heating hours between the zones, even if they should fall on the same modeled hour, against the intent of the standard.
My pure speculation (for what it's worth, as a young EIT) is this practice developed because eQuest BDL reports don't present the crunched numbers in a way that makes the sum of unmet load hours, as intended by 90.1, easy to determine. I wouldn't be shocked to learn other energy modeling software packages generate LEED compliance summaries featuring unmet load hour totals in sync with the real intent of ASHRAE 90.1.
If there's anything I've learned from going out on a limb, it's that I'm sure to learn something whether I fall or not!
~Nick
[cid:image001.jpg at 01CADFEB.EE8BFA20]
NICK CATON, E.I.T.
PROJECT ENGINEER
25501 west valley parkway
olathe ks 66061
direct 913 344.0036
fax 913 345.0617
Check out our new web-site @ www.smithboucher.com<www.smithboucher.htm>
From: Rosenberg, Michael I [ mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov]
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 7:39 PM
To: Nick Caton; Crockett, Jim; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
Nick,
Your interpretation is the correct one. According to the definitions in Standard 90.1.
unmet load hour: an hour in which one or more zones is outside of the thermostat setpoint range.
Mike
__________________________
Michael Rosenberg
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
2032 Todd Street
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 844-1960
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov<mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>
www.pnl.gov<http://www.pnl.gov/>
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [ mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick Caton
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 5:33 PM
To: Crockett, Jim; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
Jim,
That's actually a really good question that I was afraid to ask when I first encountered it - kudos to you! I've currently resolved to follow what others seemed to be doing within and outside of my office: Sum up all unmet hours for cooling and heating between the zones just as you describe. In your example, I'd agree that the unmet hours of your 301 zone building total 301.
I do agree that this doesn't seem intuitively to be the intent of the standard, however between what is suggested within 90.1, the LEED handbook, and the LEED credit templates - I honestly can't see any clear indication either way on which is the appropriate interpretation.
I think the appropriate metric for ensuring appropriately sized systems should be something like: "hours of the modeled year in which at least one zone has an unmet cooling/heating load," but I think that was avoided by all concerned parties because it's too wordy!
My acting interpretation, again referencing your example, is that all systems of your 301 zone example affecting the zones with unmet cooling/heating hours should have their heating/cooling/overall sizing capacity ratios increased incrementally until the design hours fall below 300 (and/or within 50 of the sum from the other model, depending on your situation).
Afraid I'm only really adding to the discussion here without providing a solid answer. Would like to echo the desire to see anyone's experiences that would help us know the "right" way to interpret this (in my case, specifically in the context of a LEED submittal).
[cid:image001.jpg at 01CADFEB.EE8BFA20]
NICK CATON, E.I.T.
PROJECT ENGINEER
25501 west valley parkway
olathe ks 66061
direct 913 344.0036
fax 913 345.0617
Check out our new web-site @ www.smithboucher.com<www.smithboucher.htm>
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [ mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Crockett, Jim
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 4:27 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours
Ashrae 90.1 (2004) Appendix G3.1.2.2 requires a baseline building to have less than 300 unmet hours. What exactly does this mean?
To illustrate my question: assume you have a building with 301 zones, and each zone has 1 unmet hour per year. This gives you a total of 301 unmet hours, and requires you to increase your baseline equipment capacity. But you could argue that, on average, the building has only 1 unmet hour per year.
Have any of you run into this? Is it addressed in an addendum somewhere, etc?
Any help is appreciated. Thanks,
Jim Crockett, P.E.
Senior Project Engineer
Energy & Carbon Management
Nexant, Inc.
4021 S. 700 E., Suite 250
Salt Lake City, Utah 84107
(801) 639-5603 - phone
(801) 266-4786 - fax
_______________________________________________
Bldg-sim mailing
list
<http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org>
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to
<mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG<mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner<http://www.mailscanner.info/>, and is
believed to be clean.
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner<http://www.mailscanner.info/>, and is
believed to be clean.
_______________________________________________
Equest-users mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
Chris Jones
14 Oneida Avenue
Toronto, ON M5J 2E3.
Tel. 416-203-7465
Fax. 416-946-1005
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20100419/021bcaac/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 1459 bytes
Desc: image001.jpg
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20100419/021bcaac/attachment.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image002.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 56343 bytes
Desc: image002.jpg
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20100419/021bcaac/attachment-0001.jpg>
More information about the Equest-users
mailing list