<html>
<body>
I had assumed that the SS-R report showed the number of under heated and
under cooled hours and was sufficient for LEED submissions?<br><br>
At 05:04 PM 4/19/2010, Nick Caton wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Content-class:
urn:content-classes:message<br>
Content-Type: multipart/related;
type="multipart/alternative";<br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>
boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAE003.EBF127E7"<br><br>
Looks exciting… I think I know what we’re looking at…<br>
<br>
Copied below is a (lengthy) discussion which essentially concluded with
one of Scott Criswell’s typical answers – hammering the confusion out of
us all =). In it, he mentions the plan to include this helpful
information in future DOE2/eQuest releases… hopefully this is coming
sooner than later!<br>
<br>
~Nick<br>
<br>
<img src="cid:7.1.0.9.2.20100419172644.02670e30@enersave.ca.2" width=119 height=37 alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB">
<br>
<b> <br>
NICK CATON, E.I.T.<br>
</b>PROJECT ENGINEER<br>
25501 west valley parkway<br>
olathe ks 66061<br>
direct 913 344.0036<br>
fax 913 345.0617<br>
<i>Check out our new web-site @
</i><a href="www.smithboucher.htm">www.smithboucher.com</a><u> <br>
</u> <br>
<b>From:</b> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Demba Ndiaye<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 19, 2010 3:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Carol Gardner; Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] How do I get unmet cooling/heating
hours toshow up in my sim file BEPU report?<br>
<br>
Well, this seems new; never seen it. A quick glance at my eQuest reports
tells me that the 3.63 – build 6510 version I have runs with DOE-2.2-47d.
I see here “h”, so it looks like the new one (or a test version).<br>
<br>
Anyway, this is the info we need for LEED EAc1 Template. And we cannot
get it from the SS-F/SS-R ‘cause they would include the coincident hours,
while this one does not seem to.<br>
<br>
______________<br>
Demba NDIAYE<br>
<br>
<b>From:</b> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Carol Gardner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 19, 2010 3:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] How do I get unmet cooling/heating
hours to show up in my sim file BEPU report?<br>
<br>
Quick first take. It looks like the numbers that would come from an
SS-F/SS-R report summed up. I have never seen this either. <br><br>
Maybe you can turn it off somehow? What do the above referenced reports
show?<br><br>
Carol<br>
On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Bishop, Bill
<<a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com">
wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>> wrote:<br>
I have an eQUESTion:<br>
<br>
How do I get this to show up in my sim files? Is this a newer
installation? All I ever get is the first two “Percent of Hours” lines.
(And it’s not because I always have zero unmet hours…)<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Bill<br>
<br>
<img src="cid:7.1.0.9.2.20100419172644.02670e30@enersave.ca.3" width=914 height=394 alt="[]">
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b>William Bishop, EIT, BEMP, LEED<sup>®</sup> AP | Pathfinder Engineers
& Architects LLP<br>
</b>Mechanical Engineer<br>
<br>
134 South Fitzhugh Street<br>
Rochester, NY 14608<br>
T: (585) 325-6004 Ext. 114<br>
F: (585) 325-6005<br>
<a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>
<br>
<a href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/" eudora="autourl">
www.pathfinder-ea.com</a><br>
P Please strive to live sustainably.<br>
<br><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Equest-users mailing list<br>
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<b>\From:</b> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Nick Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 28, 2009 7:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Scott Criswell; steve.gates@doe2.com<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org;
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet
hours<br>
<br>
Scott,<br>
<br>
Wanted to express thanks I’m certain many of us in the community share
for you, Steve Gates and the rest of the DOE-2 team. I know I’m not
the only one looking forward very much to this new feature!<br>
<br>
~Nick<br>
<br>
<img src="cid:7.1.0.9.2.20100419172644.02670e30@enersave.ca.2" width=119 height=37 alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB">
<br>
<b> <br>
NICK CATON, E.I.T.<br>
</b>PROJECT ENGINEER<br>
25501 west valley parkway<br>
olathe ks 66061<br>
direct 913 344.0036<br>
fax 913 345.0617<br>
<i>Check out our new web-site @
</i><a href="www.smithboucher.htm">www.smithboucher.com</a><u> <br>
</u> <br>
<b>From:</b> Scott Criswell
[<a href="mailto:scott.criswell@doe2.com" eudora="autourl">
mailto:scott.criswell@doe2.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Rosenberg, Michael I<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ashu gupta; Nick Caton; Crockett, Jim; Kendra Tupper;
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours<br>
<br>
I can confirm Mike's understanding of the DOE-2/eQUEST results. To
get the correct number of hours of unmet loads, people should MULTIPLY
the Percent hours outside throttling range from BEPS or BEPU by the total
annual "hours fans on" listed in report SS-E.<br><br>
One other comment re: Ashu's write-up - I believe that (for DOE-2/eQUEST)
a zone temperature has to be more than one degree outside the throttling
range for that hour to be counted as an hour outside throttling
range. So for a zone with a heating thermostat setpoint of 72 and a
2 degree throttling range (=> 71-73 degree "throttling
range"), the zone temperature would have to be LESS THAN 70 in order
for that hour to be counted.<br><br>
related info -<br>
We are contemplating a change to the Air-Side HVAC Summary view in the
eQUEST interface to report this total number of hours as opposed to just
the percent in the totals section at the bottom of the report.<br>
We have also just in the past several days (thanks to the efforts of
Steve Gates) added precision to the percent hours outside throttling
range reported on BEPS & BEPU and ALSO added separate reporting of
hours any zone is either under cooled or under heated, intended for
reporting to LEED submission templates. Assuming no further changes
(which is certainly not out of the question), future releases of
DOE-2/eQUEST will report the following in the BEPS & BEPU
reports:<br>
<tt> PERCENT OF HOURS ANY
SYSTEM ZONE OUTSIDE OF THROTTLING RANGE = 4.45</tt><br>
<tt> PERCENT OF HOURS ANY
PLANT LOAD NOT
SATISFIED
= 0.00</tt><br>
<tt> HOURS ANY ZONE ABOVE
COOLING THROTTLING
RANGE
= 98</tt><br>
<tt> HOURS ANY ZONE BELOW
HEATING THROTTLING
RANGE
= 25</tt><br><br>
- Scott<br><br>
<br>
Rosenberg, Michael I wrote: <br>
Ashu,<br>
<br>
I am in agreement with everything you stated except possibly this;<br>
<br>
“When percentage of unmet is specified, than this is the percentage of
total number of hours (1 year- 8760 hours) for which the simulation is
performed (not just the occupied hours)”<br>
<br>
My understanding is that some simulation programs (DOE2 and eQuest in
particular) report this as a percentage of hours that the fan is running.
I could be wrong, and I am sure some of you DOE2 experts can comment on
what is reported in the DOE2 BEPS report.<br>
<br>
Mike<br>
<br>
<br>
<b>__________________________</b> <br>
<b>Michael Rosenberg</b> <br>
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst <br>
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE <br>
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory <br>
2032 Todd Street <br>
Eugene, OR 97405 <br>
(541) 844-1960 <br>
<a href="mailto:michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov">michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov</a>
<br>
<a href="http://www.pnl.gov/" eudora="autourl">www.pnl.gov</a> <br>
<b>From:</b> ashu gupta
[<a href="mailto:kce2@kamalcogentenergy.com">
mailto:kce2@kamalcogentenergy.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 26, 2009 10:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Rosenberg, Michael I; 'Nick Caton'; 'Crockett, Jim'; 'Kendra
Tupper'<br>
<b>Cc:</b>
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours<br>
<br>
Dear All,<br>
<br>
Explanation of Unmet Hours is as follows:<br>
<br>
<b>Unmet Hours:<br>
</b>Unmet hours of a building are the summation of the number of hours
when the heating or the cooling set point temperature of a zone is not
met either by the HVAC system or by the plant.<br><br>
<b>Understanding/Interpreting/Calculating the number of unmet hours:</b>
<ul>
<li>Unmet hour is for a particular zone when the zone indoor temperature
is higher than the heating or cooling set point specified in that hour.
<li>The number or the percentage of unmet hours in a building is usually
given as one of the outputs of the simulation.
<li>Zone wise unmet can also be read from the various output files
provided by the software used for simulation.
</ul>(Example: <br>
Visual DOE: “SS-J System Peak Heating and Cooling Days” report &<br>
Energy Plus: Output Variable, “Time Cooling Set point Not met”)
<ul>
<li>When two zones are unmet at the same hour, this will count to one
unmet hour for the building.
<li>When two zones have unmet hours during different non overlapping
times of a day, the total number of unmet hours in that day is the
summation of these unmet hours of each zone. This total for the year
should be considered as the total unmet hours of the building.
</ul><i>Example: <br>
</i>When each zone is unmet in the specified hours as beside,<br>
<br>
Zone 1 unmet
during:
6
8
14 16<br>
Zone 2 unmet
during:
6
8
12 16<br>
Zone 3 unmet
during:
7
8
12 13<br>
<br>
Total number of unmet hours of the building: <b>7 hrs</b> and not
12hrs.<br>
6
7
8
12
13
14 16<br>
<ul>
<li>When percentage of unmet is specified, than this is the percentage of
total number of hours (1 year- 8760 hours) for which the simulation is
performed (not just the occupied hours)
<li>As per ASHRAE 90.1-2004, the unmet hours of the total building should
be less than or equal to 300 hours and the difference in the base case
and proposed case should be less than or equal to 50 hours.
<li>If unmet load hours in the proposed building exceed the unmet load
hours in the baseline building by more than 50, then the size of
equipment in the baseline building shall be reduced incrementally, until
the condition is satisfied.
</ul> <br>
<br>
Thanks<br><br>
Ashu Gupta,<br>
Project Engineer,<br>
Kamal Cogent Energy,<br>
Kamal Ratan Chanbers 1st Floor,<br>
Opp. GPO, M.I. Road,<br>
Jaipur 302001<br>
Ph 141 2373185(W)<br>
Ph 9251665008(M)<br>
<a href="mailto:kce2@kamalcogentenergy.com">kce2@kamalcogentenergy.com</a>
<br>
<a href="http://www.kamalcogentenergy.com/" eudora="autourl">
www.kamalcogentenergy.com</a><br>
<hr>
<div align="center"></div>
<b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Rosenberg, Michael I<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Caton; Crockett, Jim; Kendra Tupper<br>
<b>Cc:</b>
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours<br>
<br>
I think eQuest and any DOE2 based software does report the hours of loads
not being met as required by Appendix G. In the BEPS report it gives
“PERCENT OF HOURS ANY SYSTEM ZONE OUTSIDE OF THROTTLING RANGE”. My
understanding of this number is that it is a percentage of scheduled fan
run-time hours, so some calculation may be necessary.<br>
<br>
<b>__________________________</b> <br>
<b>Michael Rosenberg</b> <br>
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst <br>
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE <br>
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory <br>
2032 Todd Street <br>
Eugene, OR 97405 <br>
(541) 844-1960 <br>
<a href="mailto:michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov">michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov</a>
<br>
<a href="http://www.pnl.gov/" eudora="autourl">www.pnl.gov</a> <br>
<b>From:</b> Nick Caton
[<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">
mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 26, 2009 8:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Rosenberg, Michael I; Crockett, Jim; Kendra Tupper<br>
<b>Cc:</b>
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours<br>
<br>
Mike,<br>
<br>
I appreciate you bringing this up. This definition drives straight
to the heart of defining the issue-at-hand… Since I kinda presented
both sides of the issue at once – I’d like to clarify where I stand
regarding what the correct interpretation <u>should be</u>. <br>
<br>
The logic is as follows: If a modeled year has 8,760 hours, can
there be 10,000 unmet load hours? By strict reading of the
standard’s definition below, I would put my foot down stating there can
<u>only</u> be 8,760, at most. <br>
<br>
By common practice however, it appears a majority (myself included) sum
unmet cooling/heating hours between the zones, even if they should fall
on the same modeled hour, against the intent of the standard. <br>
<br>
My pure speculation (for what it’s worth, as a young EIT) is this
practice developed because eQuest BDL reports don’t present the crunched
numbers in a way that makes the sum of unmet load hours, as intended by
90.1, easy to determine. I wouldn’t be shocked to learn other
energy modeling software packages generate LEED compliance summaries
featuring unmet load hour totals in sync with the real intent of ASHRAE
90.1.<br>
<br>
If there’s anything I’ve learned from going out on a limb, it’s that I’m
sure to learn something whether I fall or not!<br>
<br>
~Nick<br>
<br>
<img src="cid:7.1.0.9.2.20100419172644.02670e30@enersave.ca.2" width=119 height=37 alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB">
<br>
<b> <br>
NICK CATON, E.I.T.<br>
</b>PROJECT ENGINEER<br>
25501 west valley parkway<br>
olathe ks 66061<br>
direct 913 344.0036<br>
fax 913 345.0617<br>
<i>Check out our new web-site @
</i><a href="www.smithboucher.htm">www.smithboucher.com</a><u> <br>
</u> <br>
<b>From:</b> Rosenberg, Michael I
[<a href="mailto:michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov">
mailto:michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 26, 2009 7:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Caton; Crockett, Jim;
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours<br>
<br>
Nick,<br>
<br>
Your interpretation is the correct one. According to the definitions in
Standard 90.1.<br>
<b><i>unmet load hour:</i></b> an hour in which one or more zones is
outside of the thermostat setpoint range.<br>
<br>
<br>
Mike<br>
<b>__________________________</b> <br>
<b>Michael Rosenberg</b> <br>
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst <br>
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE <br>
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory <br>
2032 Todd Street <br>
Eugene, OR 97405 <br>
(541) 844-1960 <br>
<a href="mailto:michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov">michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov</a>
<br>
<a href="http://www.pnl.gov/" eudora="autourl">www.pnl.gov</a> <br>
<b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Nick Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 26, 2009 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Crockett, Jim;
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours<br>
<br>
Jim,<br>
<br>
That’s actually a really good question that I was afraid to ask when I
first encountered it – kudos to you! I’ve currently resolved to
follow what others seemed to be doing within and outside of my
office: Sum up all unmet hours for cooling and heating between the
zones just as you describe. In your example, I’d agree that
the unmet hours of your 301 zone building total 301.<br>
<br>
I do agree that this doesn’t seem intuitively to be the intent of the
standard, however between what is suggested within 90.1, the LEED
handbook, and the LEED credit templates – I honestly can’t see any clear
indication either way on which is the appropriate interpretation.
<br>
<br>
I think the appropriate metric for ensuring appropriately sized systems
should be something like: “hours of the modeled year in which at least
one zone has an unmet cooling/heating load,” but I think that was
avoided by all concerned parties because it’s too wordy!<br>
<br>
My acting interpretation, again referencing your example, is that all
systems of your 301 zone example affecting the zones with unmet
cooling/heating hours should have their heating/cooling/overall sizing
capacity ratios increased incrementally until the design hours fall below
300 (and/or within 50 of the sum from the other model, depending on your
situation).<br>
<br>
Afraid I’m only really adding to the discussion here without providing a
solid answer. Would like to echo the desire to see anyone’s
experiences that would help us know the “right” way to interpret this (in
my case, specifically in the context of a LEED submittal).<br>
<br>
<img src="cid:7.1.0.9.2.20100419172644.02670e30@enersave.ca.2" width=119 height=37 alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB">
<br>
<b> <br>
NICK CATON, E.I.T.<br>
</b>PROJECT ENGINEER<br>
25501 west valley parkway<br>
olathe ks 66061<br>
direct 913 344.0036<br>
fax 913 345.0617<br>
<i>Check out our new web-site @
</i><a href="www.smithboucher.htm">www.smithboucher.com</a><u> <br>
</u> <br>
<b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Crockett, Jim<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 26, 2009 4:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b>
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Ashrae 90.1 - Unmet hours<br>
<br>
Ashrae 90.1 (2004) Appendix G3.1.2.2 requires a baseline building to have
less than 300 unmet hours. What exactly does this mean?<br>
<br>
To illustrate my question: assume you have a building with 301
zones, and each zone has 1 unmet hour per year. This gives you a
total of 301 unmet hours, and requires you to increase your baseline
equipment capacity. But you could argue that, on average, the
building has only 1 unmet hour per year.<br>
<br>
Have any of you run into this? Is it addressed in an addendum
somewhere, etc?<br>
<br>
Any help is appreciated. Thanks,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jim Crockett, P.E.<br>
<br>
Senior Project Engineer<br>
Energy & Carbon Management<br>
Nexant, Inc.<br>
4021 S. 700 E., Suite 250<br>
Salt Lake City, Utah 84107<br>
<br>
(801) 639-5603 - phone<br>
(801) 266-4786 - fax<br>
<br><br>
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