[UA] Archetypes...

[Ysidro]

Epoch wrote:

<snip>

> 
> I'll semi-cheat to the 2nd level, and note that the first time that came
> up on this list (back in the prehistory), Greg, John, or both specifically
> said that their view of the canon version was a physical restart.
> 
> See?  It pays to be a list dinosaur.  Of course, that argument depends on
> the perhaps dubious notion that you care less what John and Greg have to
> say that's not printed in one of the books.
> 

Hey, I'm a list dinosaur.  I'm just a list dinosaur that hides under a
giant fern and listens in on the other dinosaurs.  I've been on the list
so long, when everyone was talking about what drew them to UA, I
couldn't remember.

I don't remember there being a canon answer.  Doesn't matter, I prefer
the complete restart.

> Here's another argument:  He's not the "last man" unless there's a whole
> lotta dying going on.
>

Counter:  last man of the (forgive me) epoch.
 
> > Genocide Victim doesn't seem right.  There's no reason why it just can't
> > be "The Victim".
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with that.  Probably depends on the form of the
> genocide.
> 
> > Why does this guy (or gal) embody the archtype better
> > than anyone else?
> 
> First death?
>

OK.  My bad. For some reason I kept imagining it as the last genocidal
death.

I still dont' like it. :)
 
> > And how does "Genocide" (which really just sounds
> > like a good take on a f'd up Godwalker of War) end?
> 
> I've got to object to the idea that genocide can just be a take on
> war.  There's an enormous emotional difference that's pretty universal
> between killing soldiers in the field of battle, and wiping out
> nations.  That difference is at LEAST as universally recognized as the
> concept of the Masterless Man or the Flying Woman, and, for that reason,
> it deserves its own archetype.
>

I was just trying to pigeonhole the archtype.  Never a good idea  I'm
sure it can still be done.  It all depends on the take of our genocidal
fella and existing archtypes.  "The Dark Stalker", "War", or  even "The
Executioner" can fit.  None are explicitly related to genocide, but all
can use it as their own little "spin" on the archtype.

Well, maybe not the Dark Stalker.  That's in One Shots, right?  FOr some
reason I don't have that yet.  

Now there's an idea for a game in there too.  An up and coming avatar of
The Executioner arranges things so he works for a madman.  Madman orders
him to kill everyone.  He starts slowly, but can't beat out the current
Godwalker.  Then he gives it all one last massive go, hoping he ascends
before he dies.
 
Oooooooh, other thought!  What if that "madman" was actually the Comte?

<snip>

> 
> See, I don't like your implicit assumption that the Comte is necessary to
> the Clergy.  Why wouldn't it be able to form a Godhead?  It's got all the
> seats.  Maybe the concept of "the last man" is necessary to end the world,
> but it's certainly not necessary to form the concept of a god.
> 
> I also like the idea of trying to arrange a Comte-less Godhead to avoid
> the end of the world.
>

<shrug>

I'm a completist at heart.  I feel the Comte is the last bit of weight
that brings it crashing down.

Still, I *do* think the idea of an incomplete godhead is interesting. 
Like I said before, "blind demiurge."  Use Kult as the basis of the next
incarnation of the world.

> > > The Vampires and Doug Forsythe are gonna be in a blood struggle.
> >
> > Interesting, but something bothers me.  It's the whole significance of
> > the First and Last Man.  How about everyone *thinks* they can fit in
> > once he's gone and everyone scrambles for something they can't have.
> > Machinations of the NG?  Scary thoughts there.
> 
> Eh.  Why?  The Comte's too neat (in the sense of "fits in place," not
> "cool").  So we have to deal with a second-rate First & Last man.  Doesn't
> bother me.
> 

Let's agree to disagree on this one.  I *like* the neatness.  Then
again, UA seems to be more about screwing up than getting things right. 
Could be an interesting campaign.

Here's another thought.  Why does the Comte live forever (or as close to
it as the GM decides)?  It can't be because he's the First and Last
Man.  The First and Last Man doesn't exist until he ascends (that's why
there's no avatars).  I'm beginning to not like the idea he's "special"
in terms of existence (but special in purpose is ok).  What if he's just
any other Joe, except he was the first Joe.  This gives him the time and
opportunity to learn things other people haven't.  If someone else had
the opportunity, they *could* have all the same power.

Greg "making up for years of lurking in one day"
-- 
Penn-Ohio Historical European Martial Arts Society
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~ysidro/pohemas.html

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