[UA] Archetypes...

[Epoch]

On Mon, 21 May 2001, Ysidro wrote:

> Epoch wrote:
> > 
> > As you point out, for the Comte to be a first & last man, everyone else
> > has to die.  That's an interesting fact.  What happens to everyone
> > else?  Does the Compte kill them?
> 
> Actually, I semi-cheated.  There is nothing in the canon that says the
> entire world ends when the Clergy is filled.  It's one theory (and the
> one I generally prefer), but another says a major shift of world powers
> and conciousness occurs (fall of the Roman Empire?).  Obviously, if the
> second is what happens then no one needs to croak.

I'll semi-cheat to the 2nd level, and note that the first time that came
up on this list (back in the prehistory), Greg, John, or both specifically
said that their view of the canon version was a physical restart.

See?  It pays to be a list dinosaur.  Of course, that argument depends on
the perhaps dubious notion that you care less what John and Greg have to
say that's not printed in one of the books.

Here's another argument:  He's not the "last man" unless there's a whole
lotta dying going on.

> Genocide Victim doesn't seem right.  There's no reason why it just can't
> be "The Victim".

I'm not sure I agree with that.  Probably depends on the form of the
genocide.

> Why does this guy (or gal) embody the archtype better
> than anyone else?

First death?

> And how does "Genocide" (which really just sounds
> like a good take on a f'd up Godwalker of War) end?

I've got to object to the idea that genocide can just be a take on
war.  There's an enormous emotional difference that's pretty universal
between killing soldiers in the field of battle, and wiping out
nations.  That difference is at LEAST as universally recognized as the
concept of the Masterless Man or the Flying Woman, and, for that reason,
it deserves its own archetype.

> I actually prefer
> the asthetics of the First and Last Man being the only ascension "set in
> stone" over several being required.

Me too, as it happens.

> > Let's drop all that and jump back to your idea that if the Comte doesn't
> > Ascend, then the universe goes on forever.  Okay, but let's suppose that
> > the IC /does/ form a Godhead (after all, it's supposed to -- all the seats
> > have been filled).
> >
> > This could be an extraordinarily good or bad thing.  If you've got a
> > benevolent Godhead, then, YAY!  The world goes on forever, and everyone's
> > nice.  If you've got a malevolent Godhead, then things look bad.  Could be
> > a nice threat to hold over a very high-level campaign.
> 
> Personally, I'd say it can't form a Godhead.  Then again, it's fun and
> you end up with a blind demiurge <evil grin>.

See, I don't like your implicit assumption that the Comte is necessary to
the Clergy.  Why wouldn't it be able to form a Godhead?  It's got all the
seats.  Maybe the concept of "the last man" is necessary to end the world,
but it's certainly not necessary to form the concept of a god.

I also like the idea of trying to arrange a Comte-less Godhead to avoid
the end of the world.

> > The Vampires and Doug Forsythe are gonna be in a blood struggle.
> 
> Interesting, but something bothers me.  It's the whole significance of
> the First and Last Man.  How about everyone *thinks* they can fit in
> once he's gone and everyone scrambles for something they can't have. 
> Machinations of the NG?  Scary thoughts there.

Eh.  Why?  The Comte's too neat (in the sense of "fits in place," not
"cool").  So we have to deal with a second-rate First & Last man.  Doesn't
bother me.

Mike

--
"Generally speaking, the Slayer is always all out of bubble gum."
	http://www.edromia.com/games/buffy/index.html


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