[TRNSYS-users] Heat Pump mass flow rates (e.g. Type 401)

Michael Diekerhof Michael.diekerhof at web.de
Tue Oct 23 00:06:57 PDT 2012 

David,
I exactly followed the tutorial. Thanks for that. But unfortunetaly I 
can´t see a controlled roomtemperature!! Also in the already existing 
*example "HVAC-Building"* that is using Type108, I cant see a controlled 
roomtemperature (20°C). Where´s the mistake since i haven´t changed 
anything in the example? When I was plotting the the Indoor temperature 
TaBack, I was expecting a almost constant temperature but not a 
temperature fluctuating between -8 and 8°C.
Best,
Michael





Am 22.10.2012 23:15, schrieb David BRADLEY:
> Michael,
>   well fundamentally, a furnace heats air and I think the heat pump 
> you were talking about heats water that then goes to a radiator, 
> correct? If so, then the furnace would be connected to Type56 by means 
> of a VENTILATION type in TRNBuild/Type56.
> Best,
>  David
>
>
>
> On 10/22/2012 10:09, Michael Diekerhof wrote:
>> David,
>> thanks a lot. I´ll try to figure that out. Just a short question 
>> before starting: In case I dont use a storage, the type 121a 
>> (Furnace) will be replaced with my heat pump type, right ?? If I use 
>> a storage tank, this one  will replace my type121, won´t it ?
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> Am 22.10.2012 16:53, schrieb David BRADLEY:
>>> Michael,
>>>   The HEATING and COOLING types that are built into TRNBuild and 
>>> Type56 are primarily used for computing the idealized heating and 
>>> cooling loads of the space. Those loads can then be imposed on a 
>>> system but the performance of the system is then dependent only on 
>>> that load, not on the delivery temperature or the room temperature. 
>>> This method of calculating system energy use is called Energy Rate 
>>> Control. What you are aiming for in your simulation is something 
>>> called Temperature Level Control where a themostat senses room 
>>> temperatures and sends control signals to equipment. The equipment 
>>> provides flows of hot or cold water and air to the delivery devices 
>>> and the room temperatures react accordingly. The Type56 model is 
>>> computing an energy balance on the space that reacts to the delivery 
>>> devices. You need to get away from using the built-in idealized 
>>> HEATING inputs and towards defining the ventilation streams, active 
>>> layers, and energy gains that will cause the space temperature to go 
>>> up or down. There is a tutorial available that will step you through 
>>> the basic process of migrating from Energy Rate Control to 
>>> Temperature Level Control. Even though it does not directly apply to 
>>> your radiator system, I think it will help your understanding of the 
>>> underlying concepts.
>>>
>>> http://sel.me.wisc.edu/trnsys/downloads/tutorials_and_examples/tlc_tutorial17.pdf
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>  David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/20/2012 08:43, Michael Diekerhof wrote:
>>>> David,
>>>> Unfortunetaly I don´t have access to the TESS library. I´m sorry 
>>>> but I dont understand what you were meaning with: /"If you do not, 
>>>> then I would imagine that you might be able to come up with a 
>>>> simplified set of equations that would give you the gains to the 
>>>> space that you need. "/
>>>>
>>>> Do you mean that I use the GAINS to adjust the radiative and 
>>>> convective part ? But how to take the room temperature into account 
>>>> by also considering the outlet temperature out of my storage ?? 
>>>> Isn´t there also a way to work with HEATING INPUTS ?! I still dont 
>>>> have an idea how to cover my heat demand by using the outlet 
>>>> temperature :(
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 19.10.2012 20:15, schrieb David BRADLEY:
>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>   Ideally, you need a radiator model that will deal with the water 
>>>>> side, take room temperature from Type56 and output the convective 
>>>>> and radiative gains to the space as outputs. Such a model exists 
>>>>> in the TESS HVAC library for Trnsys17 if you have access to it 
>>>>> (Type1231). If you do not, then I would imagine that you might be 
>>>>> able to come up with a simplified set of equations that would give 
>>>>> you the gains to the space that you need.
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>  David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/18/2012 09:24, Michael Diekerhof wrote:
>>>>>> David,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks a lot. I´ll have a look.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could you please help me in another case. My plan is to connect 
>>>>>> the HP to a storage tank and then giving a temperature from the 
>>>>>> storage (type4) to my type56... How can I realize that my type 56 
>>>>>> can be heated to achieve a constant room temperature of e.g. 20°C ?!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Someone told me that I must use HEATING and then INPUT...  but 
>>>>>> what if i would like to simulate a simple radiator with a simple 
>>>>>> inlet temperature of e.g. 55°C.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you understand my problem? I dont know how to cover my heat 
>>>>>> demand out of the storage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks in advance
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 18.10.2012 16:16, schrieb David BRADLEY:
>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>   I would recommend that you look online at manufacturer's sites 
>>>>>>> for similarly sized heat pumps. Trane and Carrier both have 
>>>>>>> significant amounts of performance data in the product 
>>>>>>> literature parts of their sites. You can probably get a good 
>>>>>>> estimate of the flow rates on both the condenser and evaporator 
>>>>>>> sizes from them.
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>  david
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/18/2012 03:53, Michael Diekerhof wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I´m working with the heat pump non-standard type 401 and try to 
>>>>>>>> display an air-source heat pump.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I dont have typical values for the Input 2 (evaporator mass 
>>>>>>>> flowrate) and Input 4 (condenser mass flowrate).
>>>>>>>> The only real connection I´m using is the dry bulb temp, coming 
>>>>>>>> from type 15, as the evaporator inlet temperature. For the 
>>>>>>>> massflowrates I would like to assume constant values.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How can I adjust an outlet condenser temperature of e.g. 55°C. 
>>>>>>>> Just about the massflowrates ?!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does anyone have experience with heat pump mass flow rates?! I 
>>>>>>>> guess it´s not necessary to have expieriences with Type 401.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I´m thankful for any advices.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> TRNSYS-users mailing list
>>>>>>>> TRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>>>>>>> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 18.10.2012 16:16, schrieb David BRADLEY:
>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>   I would recommend that you look online at manufacturer's sites 
>>>>>>> for similarly sized heat pumps. Trane and Carrier both have 
>>>>>>> significant amounts of performance data in the product 
>>>>>>> literature parts of their sites. You can probably get a good 
>>>>>>> estimate of the flow rates on both the condenser and evaporator 
>>>>>>> sizes from them.
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>  david
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/18/2012 03:53, Michael Diekerhof wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I´m working with the heat pump non-standard type 401 and try to 
>>>>>>>> display an air-source heat pump.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I dont have typical values for the Input 2 (evaporator mass 
>>>>>>>> flowrate) and Input 4 (condenser mass flowrate).
>>>>>>>> The only real connection I´m using is the dry bulb temp, coming 
>>>>>>>> from type 15, as the evaporator inlet temperature. For the 
>>>>>>>> massflowrates I would like to assume constant values.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How can I adjust an outlet condenser temperature of e.g. 55°C. 
>>>>>>>> Just about the massflowrates ?!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does anyone have experience with heat pump mass flow rates?! I 
>>>>>>>> guess it´s not necessary to have expieriences with Type 401.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I´m thankful for any advices.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> TRNSYS-users mailing list
>>>>>>>> TRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>>>>>>> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> ***************************
>>> David BRADLEY
>>> Principal
>>> Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
>>> 22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
>>> Madison, WI  53703 USA
>>>
>>> P:+1.608.274.2577
>>> F:+1.608.278.1475
>>> d.bradley at tess-inc.com
>>>
>>> http://www.tess-inc.com
>>> http://www.trnsys.com
>>
>
> -- 
> ***************************
> David BRADLEY
> Principal
> Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
> 22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
> Madison, WI  53703 USA
>
> P:+1.608.274.2577
> F:+1.608.278.1475
> d.bradley at tess-inc.com
>
> http://www.tess-inc.com
> http://www.trnsys.com

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