[TRNSYS-users] Heat Pump mass flow rates (e.g. Type 401)

Mon Oct 22 08:09:48 PDT 2012

David,
thanks a lot. I´ll try to figure that out. Just a short question before 
starting: In case I dont use a storage, the type 121a (Furnace) will be 
replaced with my heat pump type, right ?? If I use a storage tank, this 
one  will replace my type121, won´t it ?
Michael

Am 22.10.2012 16:53, schrieb David BRADLEY:
> Michael,
>   The HEATING and COOLING types that are built into TRNBuild and 
> Type56 are primarily used for computing the idealized heating and 
> cooling loads of the space. Those loads can then be imposed on a 
> system but the performance of the system is then dependent only on 
> that load, not on the delivery temperature or the room temperature. 
> This method of calculating system energy use is called Energy Rate 
> Control. What you are aiming for in your simulation is something 
> called Temperature Level Control where a themostat senses room 
> temperatures and sends control signals to equipment. The equipment 
> provides flows of hot or cold water and air to the delivery devices 
> and the room temperatures react accordingly. The Type56 model is 
> computing an energy balance on the space that reacts to the delivery 
> devices. You need to get away from using the built-in idealized 
> HEATING inputs and towards defining the ventilation streams, active 
> layers, and energy gains that will cause the space temperature to go 
> up or down. There is a tutorial available that will step you through 
> the basic process of migrating from Energy Rate Control to Temperature 
> Level Control. Even though it does not directly apply to your radiator 
> system, I think it will help your understanding of the underlying 
> concepts.
>
> http://sel.me.wisc.edu/trnsys/downloads/tutorials_and_examples/tlc_tutorial17.pdf
>
> Best,
>  David
>
>
>
> On 10/20/2012 08:43, Michael Diekerhof wrote:
>> David,
>> Unfortunetaly I don´t have access to the TESS library. I´m sorry but 
>> I dont understand what you were meaning with: /"If you do not, then I 
>> would imagine that you might be able to come up with a simplified set 
>> of equations that would give you the gains to the space that you need. "/
>>
>> Do you mean that I use the GAINS to adjust the radiative and 
>> convective part ? But how to take the room temperature into account 
>> by also considering the outlet temperature out of my storage ?? Isn´t 
>> there also a way to work with HEATING INPUTS ?! I still dont have an 
>> idea how to cover my heat demand by using the outlet temperature :(
>>
>> Best,
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 19.10.2012 20:15, schrieb David BRADLEY:
>>> Michael,
>>>   Ideally, you need a radiator model that will deal with the water 
>>> side, take room temperature from Type56 and output the convective 
>>> and radiative gains to the space as outputs. Such a model exists in 
>>> the TESS HVAC library for Trnsys17 if you have access to it 
>>> (Type1231). If you do not, then I would imagine that you might be 
>>> able to come up with a simplified set of equations that would give 
>>> you the gains to the space that you need.
>>> Best,
>>>  David
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/18/2012 09:24, Michael Diekerhof wrote:
>>>> David,
>>>>
>>>> thanks a lot. I´ll have a look.
>>>>
>>>> Could you please help me in another case. My plan is to connect the 
>>>> HP to a storage tank and then giving a temperature from the storage 
>>>> (type4) to my type56... How can I realize that my type 56 can be 
>>>> heated to achieve a constant room temperature of e.g. 20°C ?!
>>>>
>>>> Someone told me that I must use HEATING and then INPUT... but what 
>>>> if i would like to simulate a simple radiator with a simple inlet 
>>>> temperature of e.g. 55°C.
>>>>
>>>> Do you understand my problem? I dont know how to cover my heat 
>>>> demand out of the storage.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 18.10.2012 16:16, schrieb David BRADLEY:
>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>   I would recommend that you look online at manufacturer's sites 
>>>>> for similarly sized heat pumps. Trane and Carrier both have 
>>>>> significant amounts of performance data in the product literature 
>>>>> parts of their sites. You can probably get a good estimate of the 
>>>>> flow rates on both the condenser and evaporator sizes from them.
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>  david
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/18/2012 03:53, Michael Diekerhof wrote:
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I´m working with the heat pump non-standard type 401 and try to 
>>>>>> display an air-source heat pump.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I dont have typical values for the Input 2 (evaporator mass 
>>>>>> flowrate) and Input 4 (condenser mass flowrate).
>>>>>> The only real connection I´m using is the dry bulb temp, coming 
>>>>>> from type 15, as the evaporator inlet temperature. For the 
>>>>>> massflowrates I would like to assume constant values.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How can I adjust an outlet condenser temperature of e.g. 55°C. 
>>>>>> Just about the massflowrates ?!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does anyone have experience with heat pump mass flow rates?! I 
>>>>>> guess it´s not necessary to have expieriences with Type 401.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I´m thankful for any advices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> TRNSYS-users mailing list
>>>>>> TRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>>>>> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 18.10.2012 16:16, schrieb David BRADLEY:
>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>   I would recommend that you look online at manufacturer's sites 
>>>>> for similarly sized heat pumps. Trane and Carrier both have 
>>>>> significant amounts of performance data in the product literature 
>>>>> parts of their sites. You can probably get a good estimate of the 
>>>>> flow rates on both the condenser and evaporator sizes from them.
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>  david
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/18/2012 03:53, Michael Diekerhof wrote:
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I´m working with the heat pump non-standard type 401 and try to 
>>>>>> display an air-source heat pump.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I dont have typical values for the Input 2 (evaporator mass 
>>>>>> flowrate) and Input 4 (condenser mass flowrate).
>>>>>> The only real connection I´m using is the dry bulb temp, coming 
>>>>>> from type 15, as the evaporator inlet temperature. For the 
>>>>>> massflowrates I would like to assume constant values.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How can I adjust an outlet condenser temperature of e.g. 55°C. 
>>>>>> Just about the massflowrates ?!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does anyone have experience with heat pump mass flow rates?! I 
>>>>>> guess it´s not necessary to have expieriences with Type 401.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I´m thankful for any advices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> TRNSYS-users mailing list
>>>>>> TRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>>>>> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
> -- 
> ***************************
> David BRADLEY
> Principal
> Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
> 22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
> Madison, WI  53703 USA
>
> P:+1.608.274.2577
> F:+1.608.278.1475
> d.bradley at tess-inc.com
>
> http://www.tess-inc.com
> http://www.trnsys.com

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