[TRNSYS-users] weird Qcool

Wed Jun 13 03:58:12 PDT 2012

Dear Adrien JEZEQUEL,

Many thanks for your patient reply and checking for my programs.

You are right. The problem is indeed Internal Gains. I define a Schedule
based on your advice. After running, it seems better than the previous.
However, there are some unreasonable situations. Please see the Attached
image.
1. Tair and Top are higher than the set point 21 °C in winter all the time.
Tair is closed to 23 °C basically, and it is only 21 °C when no occupancy.
I guess the reason is the compensation of internal gains and mechanical
ventilation.
Do you have some solutions to make sure that the set point is 21 °C in
winter?

2.Tair and Top are lower than the set point 26 °C in summer all the time.
The maximal is only 25.4 °C. I guess the reason is due to the influence of
mechanical ventilation, and only a few hot days (Toutdoor>26 °C) in summer.
I would like to ensure that the set point is 26 °C in summer. Do you have
some solutions to that problem? Only reduce air change rate of mechanical
ventilation? Anything else?

3.Qinf and Qvent are different all over the year although the infiltration
rate and ventilation rate settings are the same all over the year. I think
Since the weather conditions especially outdoor temperature, wind direction
and wind velocity are different all over the year. Am I right?

4. Based on Energy_zone.BAL file, Qcool is 0 all the time. Do you have some
ideas? I think it is due to mechanical ventilation and only a few hot days
(Toutdoor>26 °C) in summer. Anything else reasons?

Many thanks in advance!

Br.

wang

2012/6/13 ITF - Adrien JEZEQUEL <a.jezequel at itf.biz>

>  Dear Wang,
>
>
> You are right : the Tcool I gave you was equal to 26, not to 24°C. Tset
> value is not important as well, the most important is that you understand
> how to do to define Tset.
> In your model, your heating and cooling advices seem to work fine. Your
> problem comes frome your internal gain : 31 people are defined all the time
> in a room of approximatively 80 m², without schedule.
> Because of your important internal gains, air temperature increases until
> 35°C in winter. Then air temperature is refreshed because Tcool = 35°C in
> winter.
> In summer, air is cooled at 24°C, because this is the temperature you
> define in your cooling advice.
>
>
> Best regards
>  ------------------------------
>   [image: www.itf.biz] <http://www.itf.biz>
> www.itf.biz Adrien JEZEQUEL
> Simulations Thermiques Dynamiques  *ITF*
>  62, Rue du Bolliet
> 73230 St Alban Leysse
> FRANCE
>   Phone :
> Fax :
> Mail:
>   +33(0) 479 750 029
> +33(0) 479 852 122
> a.jezequel at itf.biz ou aj at itf.biz  *Afin de contribuer au respect de
> l'environnement, merci de n'imprimer cet e-mail que si nécessaire
> Please, consider our environmental responsability before printing this
> email
> *
>
> Le 12/06/2012 18:19, 王洋 a écrit :
>
> Dear Adrien Jezequel,
>
> Thanks for your quick reply!
> Tcool = 35 - 9 * Summer means if in summer, Tcool = 26 °C?
>
> I tried to run the simulation based on your solution Tcool = 35 - 9 *
> Summer, the result is also like the last Attached.
> Oppositely, it is not my heating system seems to work all the time, it is
> my cooling system seems to work all the time.
> I set internal gains all the year.
>
> Please see the Attached *.tpf and *.bui files, if you have free time ,
> please help me have a look and give me some solutions.
>
> Many thanks in advance!
>
> Br.
>
> wang
>
>
> 2012/6/12 ITF - Adrien JEZEQUEL <a.jezequel at itf.biz>
>
>>  Or sorry, I made a mistake in my previous mail :
>>
>>    - Tcool = 35 - 9 * Summer (instead of 35*winter  - 9*summer)
>>
>> Regarding your heating system it may be something like :
>>
>>    - Theat = 21*Winter
>>
>> Regarding your attached picture, your heating system seems to work all
>> the time.
>> In summer, either you cool at 21°C, either there is no internal gains
>> defined, and you heat at 21°C.
>> Check your differents inputs.
>> You can procede step by step (internal gain = 0, ventilation = 0,
>> infiltration rate = 0...) to see the influence of each parameters in your
>> model to catch your issue.
>>
>> Best regards
>>   ------------------------------
>>   [image: www.itf.biz] <http://www.itf.biz>
>> www.itf.biz Adrien JEZEQUEL
>> Simulations Thermiques Dynamiques  *ITF*
>>  62, Rue du Bolliet
>> 73230 St Alban Leysse
>> FRANCE
>>   Phone :
>> Fax :
>> Mail:
>>   +33(0) 479 750 029
>> +33(0) 479 852 122 <%2B33%280%29%20479%20852%20122>
>> a.jezequel at itf.biz ou aj at itf.biz  *Afin de contribuer au respect de
>> l'environnement, merci de n'imprimer cet e-mail que si nécessaire
>> Please, consider our environmental responsability before printing this
>> email
>> *
>>
>>  Le 12/06/2012 17:47, 王洋 a écrit :
>>
>> Dear Adrien Jezequel,
>>
>> Many thanks!
>>
>> I think you'd better put for cooling temperatures
>>
>>    - 35°C in winter (no cool) - heating temperature at 21°C
>>     - 24°C in summer
>>
>>  which may be translated in an equation tool by something like :
>>
>>    - summer = GE(TIME,2162)*LT(TIME,6552)
>>    - winter = 1 - summer
>>     - Tcool = 35*Winter - 9*Summer
>>
>> For Tcool = 35*Winter - 9*Summer, do you mean if in winter, Tcool = 35
>> °C, so Cooling doesn't work ; if in summer, Tcool = -9°C or 24 °C?
>>
>> Meanwhile, another weird phenomena appear: After running based on your
>> solution in winter, indoor temperature becomes 35 °C also not 21 °C,
>> although I set heating temperature as 21 °C; in summer, however, indoor
>> temperature becomes 21 °C. Please see the Attached On-Line Plotter image.
>> Furthermore, when I create another Tcool equation as 35*winter+24*summer,
>> the result is also like the Attached On-Line Plotter image.
>>
>> Please give me some solutions or advices!
>> I think the point how to set that Cooling doesn't work in winter? The
>> possible reason of that problem is that I also set a Mechanical Ventilation
>> in winter (Tset=19 °C) and summer (Tset=17 °C). I guess Maybe the
>> Mechanical Ventilation will influence on Cooling and heating?
>>
>> Many thanks in advance!
>>
>> Br.
>>
>> wang
>>
>>
>> 2012/6/12 <trnsys-users-request at cae.wisc.edu>
>>
>>> Send TRNSYS-users mailing list submissions to
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>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>   1. Re: TRNSYS-users Digest, Vol 90, Issue 23
>>>      (jose.gonzalez at imdea.org)
>>>   2. Re: weird Qcool (ITF - Adrien JEZEQUEL)
>>>   3. Flue gas stack in TRNSYS (Mazen Darwish)
>>>   4. AutoReply: TRNSYS-users Digest, Vol 90, Issue 23
>>>      (kelelo1 at kelelo.com)
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
>>> From: <jose.gonzalez at imdea.org>
>>> To: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>> Cc:
>>> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 14:56:21 +0200 (CEST)
>>> Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] TRNSYS-users Digest, Vol 90, Issue 23
>>> I am out of the office from Monday, June 11 to Friday, June 15 and
>>> unable to respond at this time.
>>>
>>> For any urgent matters, please contact Dr. Manuel Romero (
>>> manuel.romero_at_imdea.org).
>>>
>>> Thank you for your understanding.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> José Gonzalez-Aguilar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
>>> From: ITF - Adrien JEZEQUEL <a.jezequel at itf.biz>
>>> To: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>> Cc:
>>> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 15:26:28 +0200
>>> Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] weird Qcool
>>>  Dear Wang,
>>>
>>> As far as I understand, the cooling set temperature you define in your
>>> model is :
>>>
>>>    - 24°C in summer, which seems to be correct
>>>    - and 0°C in winter... which seems to be wrong, since you don't
>>>    refresh your thermal zone at 0°C in winter!
>>>
>>> That's why you obtain huge cooling loads.
>>> BAL_ENERGY is not 0 because you heat and cool in the same time in winter.
>>>
>>> I think you'd better put for cooling temperatures
>>>
>>>    - 35°C in winter (no cool) - heating temperature at 21°C
>>>     - 24°C in summer
>>>
>>> which may be translated in an equation tool by something like :
>>>
>>>    - summer = GE(TIME,2162)*LT(TIME,6552)
>>>    - winter = 1 - summer
>>>     - Tcool = 35*Winter - 9*Summer
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>>  ------------------------------
>>>   [image: www.itf.biz] <http://www.itf.biz>
>>> www.itf.biz Adrien JEZEQUEL
>>> Simulations Thermiques Dynamiques  *ITF*
>>>  62, Rue du Bolliet
>>> 73230 St Alban Leysse
>>> FRANCE
>>>   Phone :
>>> Fax :
>>> Mail:
>>>   +33(0) 479 750 029
>>> +33(0) 479 852 122
>>> a.jezequel at itf.biz ou aj at itf.biz  *Afin de contribuer au respect de
>>> l'environnement, merci de n'imprimer cet e-mail que si nécessaire
>>> Please, consider our environmental responsability before printing this
>>> email
>>> *
>>>
>>> Le 12/06/2012 14:55, 王洋 a écrit :
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I make a simulation. The cooling set temperature is 24*Summer schedule
>>> (2162 h to 6552 h), The heating set temperature is 21*Winter schedule (the
>>> rest hours). After running, however, it appears WEIRD phenomenon. Please
>>> see the ATTACHED Energy_zone.BAL file. During the winter period, there are
>>> Qcools and Qcool is very large up to 47000 kJ. And then it results in wrong
>>> BAL_ENERG, it is not 0.
>>>
>>> Please give me some advices and solutions to that!
>>>
>>> Many thanks in advance!
>>>
>>> Br.
>>>
>>> wang
>>>
>>> 2012/6/11 <trnsys-users-request at cae.wisc.edu>
>>>
>>>> Send TRNSYS-users mailing list submissions to
>>>>        trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>>>
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>        https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>        trnsys-users-request at cae.wisc.edu
>>>>
>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>        trnsys-users-owner at cae.wisc.edu
>>>>
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of TRNSYS-users digest..."
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>>   1. Re: TRNSYS-users Digest, Vol 90, Issue 21
>>>>      (jose.gonzalez at imdea.org)
>>>>   2. AutoReply: TRNSYS-users Digest, Vol 90, Issue 21
>>>>      (kelelo1 at kelelo.com)
>>>>   3. type666 (Andr?s Montero)
>>>>   4. Type 673 heating problem (Santeri Siren)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
>>>> From: <jose.gonzalez at imdea.org>
>>>> To: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>>> Cc:
>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 16:07:28 +0200 (CEST)
>>>> Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] TRNSYS-users Digest, Vol 90, Issue 21
>>>> I am out of the office from Monday, June 11 to Friday, June 15 and
>>>> unable to respond at this time.
>>>>
>>>> For any urgent matters, please contact Dr. Manuel Romero (
>>>> manuel.romero_at_imdea.org).
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your understanding.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> José Gonzalez-Aguilar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
>>>> From: kelelo1 at kelelo.com
>>>> To: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>>> Cc:
>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 14:10:47 GMT
>>>> Subject: [TRNSYS-users] AutoReply: TRNSYS-users Digest, Vol 90, Issue 21
>>>>
>>>> I will be out of the office from June 8 - 23 on a backpacking trip with
>>>> my son and his Venture Crew at Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico. I will
>>>> not have access to email or phone service while I am gone, but I will reply
>>>> to your message as soon as possible after I return to the office on Monday,
>>>> June 25th.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your patience,
>>>> Mark Thornbloom
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
>>>> From: "Andrés Montero" <andresmonteroi at gmail.com>
>>>> To: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>>> Cc:
>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 16:57:30 +0200
>>>> Subject: [TRNSYS-users] type666
>>>> Dear Trnsys users,
>>>>
>>>>  In order to simulate a water-cooled chiller, first I need to create
>>>> the 2 external files for this component.
>>>> I'm trying to find some catalogues with information of a 40 to 45 kW
>>>> water-cooled chiller but the web pages I run into it, ask me to register,
>>>> but I'm still waiting the username and pasword. Does anyone has a catalgoue
>>>> with this type of info regarding this cooling capacity machine?
>>>>
>>>>  Best regards,
>>>>
>>>>  Andrés
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>> Andrés Montero I.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
>>>> From: Santeri Siren <santeri.siren1 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "trnsys käyttäjät" <trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu>
>>>> Cc:
>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 19:56:40 +0300
>>>> Subject: [TRNSYS-users] Type 673 heating problem
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> I cant make type673 heating mode to work. Cooling mode works just fine
>>>> but when I change the cooling control signal to 0 and heating control
>>>> signal to 1 it doesnt work anymore. When the heating mode is used nothing
>>>> happens. Does anyone know why?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Santeri Siren
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TRNSYS-users mailing list
>>>> TRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.edu
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TRNSYS-users mailing listTRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.eduhttps://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
>>> From: Mazen Darwish <mazentd at gmail.com>
>>> To: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>> Cc:
>>> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:05:51 +0200
>>> Subject: [TRNSYS-users] Flue gas stack in TRNSYS
>>> Hello everyone ,
>>>
>>> Is there a way to model a flue gas stack in TRNSYS , i need to
>>> recirculate hot air and flue gases from the economizer in an HRSG back to a
>>> solar tower .
>>>
>>> i appreciate your ideas.
>>>
>>> Mazen Darwish
>>> KTH Royal Institute of Technology
>>> Department of Energy Technology
>>> Brinellvägen 68, SE-100 44 Stockholm, Sweden
>>> Mobile: +46-(0)-723 08 18 93 <%2B46-%280%29-723%2008%2018%2093>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
>>> From: kelelo1 at kelelo.com
>>> To: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>> Cc:
>>> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 14:23:03 GMT
>>> Subject: [TRNSYS-users] AutoReply: TRNSYS-users Digest, Vol 90, Issue 23
>>>
>>> I will be out of the office from June 8 - 23 on a backpacking trip with
>>> my son and his Venture Crew at Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico. I will
>>> not have access to email or phone service while I am gone, but I will reply
>>> to your message as soon as possible after I return to the office on Monday,
>>> June 25th.
>>>
>>> Thank you for your patience,
>>> Mark Thornbloom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TRNSYS-users mailing list
>>> TRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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