[TRNSYS-users] Total heating demand

王洋 wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com
Sun Jan 9 02:15:38 PST 2011 

Dear Mr. doell,

  Many thanks for your reply!

  1. To case 2 and 3: I tried a larger time period 10 days. But the result
is still that case 3 is about 4 times than case 2. Do you mean I should
simulate one month or one year?

 2. You're right, I didn't simulate any heat generation. Do you mean I
should add the boiler into Active Layer(floor heating). If so, how to add
the boiler into the Active Layer? Which type need i use?

3. you mean Qheat is the case 1's real heat demand. Is the QALFL_Inlet of
case 2 not the real heat demand? Is it samller than the real total heat
demand? If so, how to get the real total heat demand of case 2 and 3?

Many thanks!

Br.

wang




2011/1/7 <trnsys-users-request at cae.wisc.edu>

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Total heating demand (??) (Jochen Doell)
>   2. Type 927 (Water to Water Heat Pump) (Andrey Vyshnepolsky)
>
>
> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
> From: Jochen Doell <jochen.doell at ise.fraunhofer.de>
> To: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 11:07:42 +0100
> Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Total heating demand (??)
> Dear Wang,
>
> Regarding your first question: I suspect the thermal capacity of the floor
> to cause the difference between case 2 and 3. Simulate a larger time period
> and this effect should get smaller.
>
> About your second question, floor or wall heating systems are more
> efficient than radiator based heating systems because they demand lower
> inlet (or forward) temperatures. By this boiler (and potential storage)
> efficiency increases. Since you do not simulate any heat generation, these
> effects do not occur in your simulation.
> I expect the Qheat of case 1 to be the real heat demand and QALFL_Inlet of
> case 2 to be the heat delivered to the room by the active layer.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Best regards,
> Jochen
>
>
> trnsys-users-request at cae.wisc.edu schrieb:
>
>> Send TRNSYS-users mailing list submissions to
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>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of TRNSYS-users digest..."
>>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. Total heating demand (??)
>>   2. Re: question about wall gain (Knut Erik Enerstvedt)
>>   3. Re: question about wall gain (salim mokraoui)
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Betreff:
>> [TRNSYS-users] Total heating demand
>> Von:
>> 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>
>> Datum:
>> Thu, 6 Jan 2011 21:16:10 +0100
>> An:
>> trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>
>> An:
>> trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>>  Happy new year!
>>
>>  I have a question about calculating total heating demand:
>>
>> There is one same room to keep indoor temperature as 20°C one day 24
>> hours,
>> the initial indoor temperature is 20°C, there is no infiltration no other
>> internal gains in the room. I used 3 different methods to calculate total
>> heating demand of one day, separately.
>>
>> 1.First is heating in TRNBuild: after using the INTEGRATOR TYPE 46, the
>> QHEAT is about 34314 kJ.
>>
>> 2.Second is floor heating(active layer): after using the INTEGRATOR TYPE
>> 46,
>> the QALFL_Inlet is about 33680.7kJ.
>>
>> 3.Third is still floor heating(active layer): after using the INTEGRATOR
>> TYPE 46, but I used Q=CwaterMwater(Tinlet-Toutlet), the result of Q is
>> 144639kJ.
>>
>> My question is: 1) To 2 and 3: Why is the difference is so large? 3 is
>> almost 4 times than 3? I will get the total heating demand, which one is
>> right? Why? What's different of both of them?
>>
>> 2) If 3 is right. Generally, the floor heating should be more
>> energy-saving
>> than common heating. But here result is absolutely opposite. The common
>> heating is more energy-heating. Why? Here what difference of common
>> heating
>> and floor heating?
>>
>> Many thanks!
>>
>> Br.
>>
>> wang
>> 在 2011年1月5日 下午7:55，王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>写道：
>>
>>
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>>  Happy new year!
>>>
>>>  I have a question about calculating total heating demand:
>>>
>>> There is one same room to keep indoor temperature as 20°C one day 24
>>> hours,
>>> the initial indoor temperature is 20°C, there is no infiltration no other
>>> internal gains in the room. I used 3 different methods to calculate total
>>> heating demand of one day, separately.
>>>
>>> 1.First is heating in TRNBuild: after using the INTEGRATOR TYPE 46, the
>>> QHEAT is about 34314 kJ.
>>>
>>> 2.Second is floor heating(active layer): after using the INTEGRATOR TYPE
>>> 46, the QALFL_Inlet is about 33680.7kJ.
>>>
>>> 3.Third is still floor heating(active layer): after using the INTEGRATOR
>>> TYPE 46, but I used Q=CwaterMwater(Tinlet-Toutlet), the result of Q is
>>> 144639kJ.
>>>
>>> My question is: 1) To 2 and 3: Why is the difference is so large? 3 is
>>> almost 4 times than 3? I will get the total heating demand, which one is
>>> right? Why? What's different of both of them?
>>>
>>> 2) If 3 is right. Generally, the floor heating should be more
>>> energy-saving
>>> than common heating. But here result is absolutely opposite. The common
>>> heating is more energy-heating. Why? Here what difference of common
>>> heating
>>> and floor heating?
>>>
>>> Many thanks!
>>>
>>> Br.
>>>
>>> wang
>>>
>>>
>>> 在 2011年1月5日 下午2:38，王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>写道：
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>>
>>>>  Happy new year!
>>>>
>>>>  I have a question about calculating total heating demand:
>>>>
>>>> There is one same room to keep indoor temperature as 20°C one day 24
>>>> hours, the initial indoor temperature is 20°C, there is no infiltration
>>>> no
>>>> other internal gains in the room. I used 3 different methods to
>>>> calculate
>>>> total heating demand of one day, separately.
>>>>
>>>> 1.First is heating in TRNBuild: after using the INTEGRATOR TYPE 46, the
>>>> QHEAT is about 34314 kJ.
>>>>
>>>> 2.Second is floor heating(active layer): after using the INTEGRATOR TYPE
>>>> 46, the QALFL_Inlet is about 33680.7kJ.
>>>>
>>>> 3.Third is still floor heating(active layer): after using the INTEGRATOR
>>>> TYPE 46, but I used Q=CwaterMwater(Tinlet-Toutlet), the result of Q is
>>>> 144639kJ.
>>>>
>>>> My question is: 1) To 2 and 3: Why is the difference is so large? 3 is
>>>> almost 4 times than 3? I will get the total heating demand, which one is
>>>> right? Why? What's different of both of them?
>>>>
>>>> 2) If 3 is right. Generally, the floor heating should be more
>>>> energy-saving than common heating. But here result is absolutely
>>>> opposite.
>>>> The common heating is more energy-heating. Why? Here what difference of
>>>> common heating and floor heating?
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Br.
>>>>
>>>> wang
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2011/1/4 <trnsys-users-request at cae.wisc.edu>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Send TRNSYS-users mailing list submissions to
>>>>>       trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>>>>
>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>>       https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>>       trnsys-users-request at cae.wisc.edu
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>> than "Re: Contents of TRNSYS-users digest..."
>>>>>
>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>
>>>>>  1. optimization problems using trnopt in Windows 7 OS (Dapeng Li)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
>>>>> From: Dapeng Li <jiap1120 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: TRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>>>> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 18:00:38 +0100
>>>>> Subject: [TRNSYS-users] optimization problems using trnopt in Windows 7
>>>>> OS
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to do optimization using trnsys, trnopt and genopt in* Windows 7
>>>>> OS. *But when I run the example in the directory of "C:\Program
>>>>> Files\Trnsys16_1\Optimization", I got a error message in Genopt
>>>>> interface
>>>>> that is enclosed in the attachment.
>>>>>
>>>>> The version I use is listed below: TRNSYS version 16.01.0003, trnopt
>>>>> version 2.1.0.52, genopt version 2.1.0 June 18, 2008.
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: I ever did optimization in XP OS, and it work well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>> With kind regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dapeng Li
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> TRNSYS-users mailing list
>>>>> TRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>>>> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Betreff:
>> Re: [TRNSYS-users] question about wall gain
>> Von:
>> Knut Erik Enerstvedt <knut.erik.enerstvedt at gmail.com>
>> Datum:
>> Fri, 7 Jan 2011 09:18:20 +0100
>> An:
>> duffy at tess-inc.com, salim.mokraoui at lermab.uhp-nancy.fr,
>> trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>
>> An:
>> duffy at tess-inc.com, salim.mokraoui at lermab.uhp-nancy.fr,
>> trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>>
>>
>> Dear Matt and Salim,
>>
>>
>> One example of usage for "wall gain" is when you have defined a boundary
>> wall with known boundary temperature, but also want to take into account
>> solar gain from windows on that wall. You can not (at least in TRNSYS 16)
>> define windows in the normal manner on boundary walls. For example, if you
>> are modelling a zone adjacent to a highly glazed building with known
>> temperature, and a glass wall separates the two. Then you can use "wall
>> gain" to impose the solar heat flux from the adjacent building on the
>> boundary wall.
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Knut Erik Enerstvedt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Dear Salim,
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> To the best of my knowledge, and according to the documentation, it is
>>>
>>>
>> indeed an energy flux to the inside wall surface. When does one >use this,
>> I
>> am not exactly sure. Perhaps when there is chimney in a wall with hot
>> exhaust gases that is causing a gain to the zone?
>>
>>
>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *>----- Original Message -----*
>> *>From:* "salim mokraoui" <salim.mokraoui at lermab.uhp-nancy.fr>
>> *>Sent:* Wed, January 5, 2011 9:23
>> *>Subject:* [TRNSYS-users] question about wall gain
>>
>>
>>
>>> Dear trnsys users,
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> In zone window of trnbuild, what does wall gain means actually, is it a
>>>
>>>
>> density flux that we impose at the inside surface of the wall ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Many thanks
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Salim MOKRAOUI
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Faculté des sciences de Nancy - LERMAB
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> BP 239
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> 54506 Vandoeuvre.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Tél 03 83 68 48 44 - mél salim.mokraoui at lermab.uhp-nancy.fr
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Betreff:
>> Re: [TRNSYS-users] question about wall gain
>> Von:
>> "salim mokraoui" <salim.mokraoui at lermab.uhp-nancy.fr>
>> Datum:
>> Fri, 7 Jan 2011 10:06:01 +0100
>> An:
>> "'Knut Erik Enerstvedt'" <knut.erik.enerstvedt at gmail.com>, <
>> duffy at tess-inc.com>, <trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu>
>>
>> An:
>> "'Knut Erik Enerstvedt'" <knut.erik.enerstvedt at gmail.com>, <
>> duffy at tess-inc.com>, <trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu>
>>
>>
>> Dear Erik and Matt,
>>
>>
>> Thank you very much for your answers.
>> I can understand that this wall gain concerns only a radiative gains, is
>> it
>> right ?
>>
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>>
>> De : Knut Erik Enerstvedt [mailto:knut.erik.enerstvedt at gmail.com] Envoyé
>> : vendredi 7 janvier 2011 09:18
>> À : duffy at tess-inc.com; salim.mokraoui at lermab.uhp-nancy.fr;
>> trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
>> Objet : Re: [TRNSYS-users] question about wall gain
>>
>>
>> Dear Matt and Salim,
>>
>>
>> One example of usage for "wall gain" is when you have defined a boundary
>> wall with known boundary temperature, but also want to take into account
>> solar gain from windows on that wall. You can not (at least in TRNSYS 16)
>> define windows in the normal manner on boundary walls. For example, if you
>> are modelling a zone adjacent to a highly glazed building with known
>> temperature, and a glass wall separates the two. Then you can use "wall
>> gain" to impose the solar heat flux from the adjacent building on the
>> boundary wall.
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Knut Erik Enerstvedt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Dear Salim,
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> To the best of my knowledge, and according to the documentation, it is
>>>
>>>
>> indeed an energy flux to the inside wall surface. When does one >use this,
>> I
>> am not exactly sure. Perhaps when there is chimney in a wall with hot
>> exhaust gases that is causing a gain to the zone?
>>
>>
>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "salim mokraoui" <salim.mokraoui at lermab.uhp-nancy.fr> Sent: Wed,
>>> January 5, 2011 9:23
>>> Subject: [TRNSYS-users] question about wall gain
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Dear trnsys users,
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> In zone window of trnbuild, what does wall gain means actually, is it a
>>>
>>>
>> density flux that we impose at the inside surface of the wall ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Many thanks
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Salim MOKRAOUI
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Faculté des sciences de Nancy - LERMAB
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> BP 239
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> 54506 Vandoeuvre.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Tél 03 83 68 48 44 - mél salim.mokraoui at lermab.uhp-nancy.fr
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TRNSYS-users mailing list
>> TRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.edu
>> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>>
>>
>
> --
> _________________________________________________
>
> Dipl.-Ing. (FH) Jochen Döll
> Dept. Thermal Systems and Buildings
>
> Fraunhofer-Institut für Solare Energiesysteme ISE
> Heidenhofstrasse 2, 79110 Freiburg, Germany
>
> Phone:  +49 (761) 4588-5468
> Fax:    +49 (761) 4588-9000
> Mail:   jochen.doell at ise.fraunhofer.de
> Web:    www.ise.fraunhofer.de
> _________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> ---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
> From: Andrey Vyshnepolsky <Andrey.Vyshnepolsky at rwth-aachen.de>
> To: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 15:17:53 -0200
> Subject: [TRNSYS-users] Type 927 (Water to Water Heat Pump)
> Hello,
>
> I am simulating a DHW-System where the heat is provided by a flat plate
> solar collector. Between the collector circle and the water tank circle I
> have put in a water-to-water heat pump (Type 927). The main idea behind this
> is to replace the auxiliary heater of the water tank. Sadly the heat pump
> doesn’t work right:
>
> The plotter shows a value of nearly zero for the gain heat of the collector
> and the heat transfer to the load circle of the heat pump is lower than the
> supplied power to the pump. But for me the heat pump shall follow this
> equation: Heat_source (=Heat_coll) + Power_pump = Heat_load.
>
> A further question is: is it allowed to change the temprature and mass flow
> values in the performance data files of the heat pump?
>
> For a better understanding I have attached the working file.
>
> Thank you very much for any kind of help in advance.
>
> With best regards,
>
> Andrey
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TRNSYS-users mailing list
> TRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.edu
> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
>
>
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