[Trace-users] Trace-users Digest, Vol 64, Issue 2
Bob Fassbender
bobfass11 at gmail.com
Wed Apr 2 15:38:12 PDT 2014
Interesting discussion.
It's easiest if you can get the "whole assembly NFRC value" which is quite
often on the Spec sheet, or even a marketing cutsheet. Sometimes, the fine
print of the spec sheet will even say "NFRC values calculated using the
Window 6 program" (or whatever version of the Window program they happened
to use!)
Of course, this ties into what Mr. Ellison says: i.e. just calculate the
whole assembly NFRC via the Window program. I have seen comments asking for
the specific calculations from the Window 6/7 program . Thus calculating
the NFRC with frame effects via the Windows program would be the next step
if not provided by the mfg.
Regarding the spreadsheet calculations - I'm sure you can do the NFRC
calculations via spreadsheet but I have not tried this myself. The Window
program is pretty easy to use, maybe easier than a spreadsheet, after
you've used it once.
Hopefully manufacturers catch on and start including assembly NFRC values
as standard data
Bob
ᐧ
On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:15 PM,
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Specify Window Frame Type (Ben Hollon)
> 2. Re: Specify Window Frame Type (Richard Ellison)
> 3. Re: Specify Window Frame Type (Doug Brenner)
> 4. Fwd: Specify Window Frame Type (Oscar Buchely L.)
> 5. Re: Specify Window Frame Type (Dahlstrom, Aaron)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 16:17:34 -0500
> From: Ben Hollon <bhollon at antella-inc.com>
> To: trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type
> Message-ID: <1588121e949cca228480dcaca98608ca at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Working on a LEED energy model in Trace. I typically use HAP, which allows
> the input of a window frame type, and it then calculates the entire window
> assembly U-value and SC, rather than just the glass.
>
>
>
> I've had LEED reviewers come back and ask me for my window assembly
> calcsand I was able to show how HAP was doing that
> calc based on the frame type as well. However, I can't find anything
> similar in Trace, and I'm getting nervous about how to show assembly
> calculations to a LEED reviewer. I've had terrible luck in the past getting
> assembly values from the manufacturer as well.
>
>
>
> I spoke with CDS and they recommended modeling a small sliver of wall that
> is representative of the frame, which seems quite tedious.
>
>
>
> Has anyone either experienced this issue, and figured out a work around?
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> *Ben Hollon, *
>
> --
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Antella Consulting Engineers, inc.
>
> 1600 Genessee, Suite 260 * Kansas City, MO 64102 * Tele: (816) 421-0950 *
> Fax:
> (816) 249-2439 * www.antella-inc.com
>
>
>
> DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this electronic communication, as
> well as in any attachments, is privileged and confidential and intended
> solely for use by the addressee(s). Any other use, dissemination, or
> copying of this electronic communication is strictly prohibited and is an
> interference with Antella Consulting Engineers, inc. confidential business
> relationships. If you received this communication in error, please notify
> me immediately and permanently delete the original and any electronic or
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> ------------------------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 21:22:20 +0000
> From: Richard Ellison <REllison at southlandind.com>
> To: Ben Hollon <bhollon at antella-inc.com>
> Cc: "trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org"
> <trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
> Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type
> Message-ID: <3E38EC7A-5A23-42EE-8E09-8C486A52BF30 at southlandind.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Build the window assembles in windows from LBNL and then put those
> assemblies into your Trace libraries. Put them into your model and explain
> to the reviewer how you did it.
>
>
> On Apr 2, 2014, at 5:17 PM, "Ben Hollon" <bhollon at antella-inc.com<mailto:
> bhollon at antella-inc.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Working on a LEED energy model in Trace. I typically use HAP, which allows
> the input of a window frame type, and it then calculates the entire window
> assembly U-value and SC, rather than just the glass.
>
> I?ve had LEED reviewers come back and ask me for my window assembly calcs
> and I was able to show how HAP was doing that calc based on the frame type
> as well. However, I can?t find anything similar in Trace, and I?m getting
> nervous about how to show assembly calculations to a LEED reviewer. I?ve
> had terrible luck in the past getting assembly values from the manufacturer
> as well.
>
> I spoke with CDS and they recommended modeling a small sliver of wall that
> is representative of the frame, which seems quite tedious.
>
> Has anyone either experienced this issue, and figured out a work around?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Ben Hollon,
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Antella Consulting Engineers, inc.
>
> 1600 Genessee, Suite 260 ? Kansas City, MO 64102 ? Tele: (816) 421-0950 ?
> Fax: (816) 249-2439 ? www.antella-inc.com<http://www.antella-inc.com>
>
>
>
> DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this electronic communication, as
> well as in any attachments, is privileged and confidential and intended
> solely for use by the addressee(s). Any other use, dissemination, or
> copying of this electronic communication is strictly prohibited and is an
> interference with Antella Consulting Engineers, inc. confidential business
> relationships. If you received this communication in error, please notify
> me immediately and permanently delete the original and any electronic or
> printed copies of this electronic communication.
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 21:38:55 +0000
> From: Doug Brenner <dougb at s3e.com>
> To: Ben Hollon <bhollon at antella-inc.com>
> Cc: "trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org"
> <trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
> Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type
> Message-ID:
> <
> 3B58FE98F338854F83F3B7ED23EBB05C07218F at DAGN11a-e6.exg6.exghost.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> In one case, I was able to get the NFRC calculation from the window
> manufacturer. This was on a design/build job where the windows had already
> been approved and purchased. I would add that it wasn't easy, the
> manufacturer would not help me until I got our GC involved.
>
> On another job that I'm currently working on, the architect provided a cut
> sheet for both the glass and the aluminum curtain wall system they are
> specifying. The curtain wall manufacturer's cut sheet had tables that
> listed the assembly u-values and SHGC's for different center of glass
> values (see attachment). I have not submtted this job yet but I hope the
> LEED reviewers will accept this approach. The manufacturer states the
> calculations are NFRC compliant.
>
> From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Richard Ellison
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 5:22 PM
> To: Ben Hollon
> Cc: trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type
>
> Build the window assembles in windows from LBNL and then put those
> assemblies into your Trace libraries. Put them into your model and explain
> to the reviewer how you did it.
>
> On Apr 2, 2014, at 5:17 PM, "Ben Hollon" <bhollon at antella-inc.com<mailto:
> bhollon at antella-inc.com>> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Working on a LEED energy model in Trace. I typically use HAP, which allows
> the input of a window frame type, and it then calculates the entire window
> assembly U-value and SC, rather than just the glass.
>
> I've had LEED reviewers come back and ask me for my window assembly calcs
> and I was able to show how HAP was doing that calc based on the frame type
> as well. However, I can't find anything similar in Trace, and I'm getting
> nervous about how to show assembly calculations to a LEED reviewer. I've
> had terrible luck in the past getting assembly values from the manufacturer
> as well.
>
> I spoke with CDS and they recommended modeling a small sliver of wall that
> is representative of the frame, which seems quite tedious.
>
> Has anyone either experienced this issue, and figured out a work around?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Ben Hollon,
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Antella Consulting Engineers, inc.
>
> 1600 Genessee, Suite 260 * Kansas City, MO 64102 * Tele: (816) 421-0950 *
> Fax: (816) 249-2439 * www.antella-inc.com<http://www.antella-inc.com>
>
>
>
> DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this electronic communication, as
> well as in any attachments, is privileged and confidential and intended
> solely for use by the addressee(s). Any other use, dissemination, or
> copying of this electronic communication is strictly prohibited and is an
> interference with Antella Consulting Engineers, inc. confidential business
> relationships. If you received this communication in error, please notify
> me immediately and permanently delete the original and any electronic or
> printed copies of this electronic communication.
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Trace-users mailing list
> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/trace-users-onebuilding.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to
> TRACE-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG<mailto:
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 17:10:22 -0500
> From: "Oscar Buchely L." <obuchely at ses-ingenieria.com>
> To: trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: [Trace-users] Fwd: Specify Window Frame Type
> Message-ID: <533C8ACE.9000400 at ses-ingenieria.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Why you don?t use apendix A values?
>
> Soluciones Energ?ticas Sostenibles
> www.ses-ingenieria.com
> Bogota - Colombia
> Tel +57 1 6192633
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 16:17:34 -0500
> From: Ben Hollon <bhollon at antella-inc.com>
> To: trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Working on a LEED energy model in Trace. I typically use HAP, which
> allows the input of a window frame type, and it then calculates the
> entire window assembly U-value and SC, rather than just the glass.
>
> I've had LEED reviewers come back and ask me for my window assembly
> calcs and I was able to show how HAP was doing that calc based on the
> frame type as well. However, I can't find anything similar in Trace, and
> I'm getting nervous about how to show assembly calculations to a LEED
> reviewer. I've had terrible luck in the past getting assembly values
> from the manufacturer as well.
>
> I spoke with CDS and they recommended modeling a small sliver of wall
> that is representative of the frame, which seems quite tedious.
>
> Has anyone either experienced this issue, and figured out a work around?
>
> Thanks!
>
> *Ben Hollon, *
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Antella Consulting Engineers, inc.
>
> 1600 Genessee, Suite 260.Kansas City, MO 64102.Tele: (816) 421-0950.
> Fax: (816) 249-2439 . www.antella-inc.com <http://www.antella-inc.com>
>
> DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this electronic communication,
> as well as in any attachments, is privileged and confidential and
> intended solely for use by the addressee(s). Any other use,
> dissemination, or copying of this electronic communication is strictly
> prohibited and is an interference with Antella Consulting Engineers,
> inc. confidential business relationships. If you received this
> communication in error, please notify me immediately and permanently
> delete the original and any electronic or printed copies of this
> electronic communication.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 22:15:10 +0000
> From: "Dahlstrom, Aaron" <ADahlstrom at in-posse.com>
> To: Doug Brenner <dougb at s3e.com>, Ben Hollon <bhollon at antella-inc.com>
> Cc: "Bldg-sim2 \(Bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org\)"
> <Bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>, "
> trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org"
> <trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
> Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type
> Message-ID:
> <2BABD26CBBF3EB479F812328038B6CFEAE0097 at AKFEX10PA.akf-eng.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I am curious if others have used Kawneer's interpolation tables for
> assembly u-value on LEED submissions and had a good result.
>
> I have in the past been somewhat puzzled what to put in the below entry
> field of Table 1.4 if I am relying on Kawneer's tables.
>
> I imagine you could put "other" and say "manufacturer tables calculated
> per NFRC 100."
>
> Is this acceptable / have others have had any issues?
> Cross posting to bldg-sim as this has broader applicability than just
> Trace.
>
> [cid:image002.jpg at 01CF4E9F.7BB7E690]
>
> Aaron Dahlstrom, PE, LEED(r) AP
> In Posse - A subsidiary of AKF| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414,
> Philadelphia, PA 19102
> d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF:
> 212-354-5656
> e: ADahlstrom at in-posse.com | in posse web: www.in-posse.com<
> http://www.in-posse.com/> | akf web: www.AKFGroup.com
>
> From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Doug Brenner
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 5:39 PM
> To: Ben Hollon
> Cc: trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type
>
> In one case, I was able to get the NFRC calculation from the window
> manufacturer. This was on a design/build job where the windows had already
> been approved and purchased. I would add that it wasn't easy, the
> manufacturer would not help me until I got our GC involved.
>
> On another job that I'm currently working on, the architect provided a cut
> sheet for both the glass and the aluminum curtain wall system they are
> specifying. The curtain wall manufacturer's cut sheet had tables that
> listed the assembly u-values and SHGC's for different center of glass
> values (see attachment). I have not submtted this job yet but I hope the
> LEED reviewers will accept this approach. The manufacturer states the
> calculations are NFRC compliant.
>
> From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:
> trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:
> trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Richard Ellison
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 5:22 PM
> To: Ben Hollon
> Cc: trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:
> trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
> Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type
>
> Build the window assembles in windows from LBNL and then put those
> assemblies into your Trace libraries. Put them into your model and explain
> to the reviewer how you did it.
>
> On Apr 2, 2014, at 5:17 PM, "Ben Hollon" <bhollon at antella-inc.com<mailto:
> bhollon at antella-inc.com>> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Working on a LEED energy model in Trace. I typically use HAP, which allows
> the input of a window frame type, and it then calculates the entire window
> assembly U-value and SC, rather than just the glass.
>
> I've had LEED reviewers come back and ask me for my window assembly calcs
> and I was able to show how HAP was doing that calc based on the frame type
> as well. However, I can't find anything similar in Trace, and I'm getting
> nervous about how to show assembly calculations to a LEED reviewer. I've
> had terrible luck in the past getting assembly values from the manufacturer
> as well.
>
> I spoke with CDS and they recommended modeling a small sliver of wall that
> is representative of the frame, which seems quite tedious.
>
> Has anyone either experienced this issue, and figured out a work around?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Ben Hollon,
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Antella Consulting Engineers, inc.
>
> 1600 Genessee, Suite 260 * Kansas City, MO 64102 * Tele: (816) 421-0950 *
> Fax: (816) 249-2439 * www.antella-inc.com<http://www.antella-inc.com>
>
>
>
> DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this electronic communication, as
> well as in any attachments, is privileged and confidential and intended
> solely for use by the addressee(s). Any other use, dissemination, or
> copying of this electronic communication is strictly prohibited and is an
> interference with Antella Consulting Engineers, inc. confidential business
> relationships. If you received this communication in error, please notify
> me immediately and permanently delete the original and any electronic or
> printed copies of this electronic communication.
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> End of Trace-users Digest, Vol 64, Issue 2
> ******************************************
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