<div dir="ltr">Interesting discussion.<div><br></div><div>It's easiest if you can get the "whole assembly NFRC value" which is quite often on the Spec sheet, or even a marketing cutsheet. Sometimes, the fine print of the spec sheet will even say "NFRC values calculated using the Window 6 program" (or whatever version of the Window program they happened to use!)</div>
<div><br></div><div>Of course, this ties into what Mr. Ellison says: i.e. just calculate the whole assembly NFRC via the Window program. I have seen comments asking for the specific calculations from the Window 6/7 program . Thus calculating the NFRC with frame effects via the Windows program would be the next step if not provided by the mfg.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Regarding the spreadsheet calculations - I'm sure you can do the NFRC calculations via spreadsheet but I have not tried this myself. The Window program is pretty easy to use, maybe easier than a spreadsheet, after you've used it once.</div>
<div><br>Hopefully manufacturers catch on and start including assembly NFRC values as standard data</div><div><br></div><div>Bob <br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div hspace="streak-pt-mark" style="max-height:1px">
<img style="width:0px; max-height:0px;" src="https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=aYm9iZmFzczExQGdtYWlsLmNvbQ%3D%3D&type=zerocontent&guid=d3b442e0-7934-46d4-a7b2-6e052e120f6b"><font color="#ffffff" size="1">ᐧ</font></div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:15 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:trace-users-request@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">trace-users-request@lists.onebuilding.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Specify Window Frame Type (Ben Hollon)<br>
2. Re: Specify Window Frame Type (Richard Ellison)<br>
3. Re: Specify Window Frame Type (Doug Brenner)<br>
4. Fwd: Specify Window Frame Type (Oscar Buchely L.)<br>
5. Re: Specify Window Frame Type (Dahlstrom, Aaron)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 16:17:34 -0500<br>
From: Ben Hollon <<a href="mailto:bhollon@antella-inc.com">bhollon@antella-inc.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:1588121e949cca228480dcaca98608ca@mail.gmail.com">1588121e949cca228480dcaca98608ca@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Working on a LEED energy model in Trace. I typically use HAP, which allows<br>
the input of a window frame type, and it then calculates the entire window<br>
assembly U-value and SC, rather than just the glass.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I've had LEED reviewers come back and ask me for my window assembly<br>
calcsand I was able to show how HAP was doing that<br>
calc based on the frame type as well. However, I can't find anything<br>
similar in Trace, and I'm getting nervous about how to show assembly<br>
calculations to a LEED reviewer. I've had terrible luck in the past getting<br>
assembly values from the manufacturer as well.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I spoke with CDS and they recommended modeling a small sliver of wall that<br>
is representative of the frame, which seems quite tedious.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Has anyone either experienced this issue, and figured out a work around?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
*Ben Hollon, *<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
Antella Consulting Engineers, inc.<br>
<br>
1600 Genessee, Suite 260 * Kansas City, MO 64102 * Tele: <a href="tel:%28816%29%20421-0950" value="+18164210950">(816) 421-0950</a> * Fax:<br>
<a href="tel:%28816%29%20249-2439" value="+18162492439">(816) 249-2439</a> * <a href="http://www.antella-inc.com" target="_blank">www.antella-inc.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this electronic communication, as<br>
well as in any attachments, is privileged and confidential and intended<br>
solely for use by the addressee(s). Any other use, dissemination, or<br>
copying of this electronic communication is strictly prohibited and is an<br>
interference with Antella Consulting Engineers, inc. confidential business<br>
relationships. If you received this communication in error, please notify<br>
me immediately and permanently delete the original and any electronic or<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 21:22:20 +0000<br>
From: Richard Ellison <<a href="mailto:REllison@southlandind.com">REllison@southlandind.com</a>><br>
To: Ben Hollon <<a href="mailto:bhollon@antella-inc.com">bhollon@antella-inc.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:3E38EC7A-5A23-42EE-8E09-8C486A52BF30@southlandind.com">3E38EC7A-5A23-42EE-8E09-8C486A52BF30@southlandind.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
<br>
Build the window assembles in windows from LBNL and then put those assemblies into your Trace libraries. Put them into your model and explain to the reviewer how you did it.<br>
<br>
<br>
On Apr 2, 2014, at 5:17 PM, "Ben Hollon" <<a href="mailto:bhollon@antella-inc.com">bhollon@antella-inc.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:bhollon@antella-inc.com">bhollon@antella-inc.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Working on a LEED energy model in Trace. I typically use HAP, which allows the input of a window frame type, and it then calculates the entire window assembly U-value and SC, rather than just the glass.<br>
<br>
I?ve had LEED reviewers come back and ask me for my window assembly calcs and I was able to show how HAP was doing that calc based on the frame type as well. However, I can?t find anything similar in Trace, and I?m getting nervous about how to show assembly calculations to a LEED reviewer. I?ve had terrible luck in the past getting assembly values from the manufacturer as well.<br>
<br>
I spoke with CDS and they recommended modeling a small sliver of wall that is representative of the frame, which seems quite tedious.<br>
<br>
Has anyone either experienced this issue, and figured out a work around?<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
Ben Hollon,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
Antella Consulting Engineers, inc.<br>
<br>
1600 Genessee, Suite 260 ? Kansas City, MO 64102 ? Tele: <a href="tel:%28816%29%20421-0950" value="+18164210950">(816) 421-0950</a> ? Fax: <a href="tel:%28816%29%20249-2439" value="+18162492439">(816) 249-2439</a> ? <a href="http://www.antella-inc.com" target="_blank">www.antella-inc.com</a><<a href="http://www.antella-inc.com" target="_blank">http://www.antella-inc.com</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this electronic communication, as well as in any attachments, is privileged and confidential and intended solely for use by the addressee(s). Any other use, dissemination, or copying of this electronic communication is strictly prohibited and is an interference with Antella Consulting Engineers, inc. confidential business relationships. If you received this communication in error, please notify me immediately and permanently delete the original and any electronic or printed copies of this electronic communication.<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 21:38:55 +0000<br>
From: Doug Brenner <<a href="mailto:dougb@s3e.com">dougb@s3e.com</a>><br>
To: Ben Hollon <<a href="mailto:bhollon@antella-inc.com">bhollon@antella-inc.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:3B58FE98F338854F83F3B7ED23EBB05C07218F@DAGN11a-e6.exg6.exghost.com">3B58FE98F338854F83F3B7ED23EBB05C07218F@DAGN11a-e6.exg6.exghost.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
In one case, I was able to get the NFRC calculation from the window manufacturer. This was on a design/build job where the windows had already been approved and purchased. I would add that it wasn't easy, the manufacturer would not help me until I got our GC involved.<br>
<br>
On another job that I'm currently working on, the architect provided a cut sheet for both the glass and the aluminum curtain wall system they are specifying. The curtain wall manufacturer's cut sheet had tables that listed the assembly u-values and SHGC's for different center of glass values (see attachment). I have not submtted this job yet but I hope the LEED reviewers will accept this approach. The manufacturer states the calculations are NFRC compliant.<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] On Behalf Of Richard Ellison<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 5:22 PM<br>
To: Ben Hollon<br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type<br>
<br>
Build the window assembles in windows from LBNL and then put those assemblies into your Trace libraries. Put them into your model and explain to the reviewer how you did it.<br>
<br>
On Apr 2, 2014, at 5:17 PM, "Ben Hollon" <<a href="mailto:bhollon@antella-inc.com">bhollon@antella-inc.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:bhollon@antella-inc.com">bhollon@antella-inc.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Working on a LEED energy model in Trace. I typically use HAP, which allows the input of a window frame type, and it then calculates the entire window assembly U-value and SC, rather than just the glass.<br>
<br>
I've had LEED reviewers come back and ask me for my window assembly calcs and I was able to show how HAP was doing that calc based on the frame type as well. However, I can't find anything similar in Trace, and I'm getting nervous about how to show assembly calculations to a LEED reviewer. I've had terrible luck in the past getting assembly values from the manufacturer as well.<br>
<br>
I spoke with CDS and they recommended modeling a small sliver of wall that is representative of the frame, which seems quite tedious.<br>
<br>
Has anyone either experienced this issue, and figured out a work around?<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
Ben Hollon,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
Antella Consulting Engineers, inc.<br>
<br>
1600 Genessee, Suite 260 * Kansas City, MO 64102 * Tele: <a href="tel:%28816%29%20421-0950" value="+18164210950">(816) 421-0950</a> * Fax: <a href="tel:%28816%29%20249-2439" value="+18162492439">(816) 249-2439</a> * <a href="http://www.antella-inc.com" target="_blank">www.antella-inc.com</a><<a href="http://www.antella-inc.com" target="_blank">http://www.antella-inc.com</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this electronic communication, as well as in any attachments, is privileged and confidential and intended solely for use by the addressee(s). Any other use, dissemination, or copying of this electronic communication is strictly prohibited and is an interference with Antella Consulting Engineers, inc. confidential business relationships. If you received this communication in error, please notify me immediately and permanently delete the original and any electronic or printed copies of this electronic communication.<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 17:10:22 -0500<br>
From: "Oscar Buchely L." <<a href="mailto:obuchely@ses-ingenieria.com">obuchely@ses-ingenieria.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: [Trace-users] Fwd: Specify Window Frame Type<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:533C8ACE.9000400@ses-ingenieria.com">533C8ACE.9000400@ses-ingenieria.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Why you don?t use apendix A values?<br>
<br>
Soluciones Energ?ticas Sostenibles<br>
<a href="http://www.ses-ingenieria.com" target="_blank">www.ses-ingenieria.com</a><br>
Bogota - Colombia<br>
Tel <a href="tel:%2B57%201%206192633" value="+5716192633">+57 1 6192633</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type<br>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 16:17:34 -0500<br>
From: Ben Hollon <<a href="mailto:bhollon@antella-inc.com">bhollon@antella-inc.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Working on a LEED energy model in Trace. I typically use HAP, which<br>
allows the input of a window frame type, and it then calculates the<br>
entire window assembly U-value and SC, rather than just the glass.<br>
<br>
I've had LEED reviewers come back and ask me for my window assembly<br>
calcs and I was able to show how HAP was doing that calc based on the<br>
frame type as well. However, I can't find anything similar in Trace, and<br>
I'm getting nervous about how to show assembly calculations to a LEED<br>
reviewer. I've had terrible luck in the past getting assembly values<br>
from the manufacturer as well.<br>
<br>
I spoke with CDS and they recommended modeling a small sliver of wall<br>
that is representative of the frame, which seems quite tedious.<br>
<br>
Has anyone either experienced this issue, and figured out a work around?<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
*Ben Hollon, *<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Antella Consulting Engineers, inc.<br>
<br>
1600 Genessee, Suite 260.Kansas City, MO 64102.Tele: <a href="tel:%28816%29%20421-0950" value="+18164210950">(816) 421-0950</a>.<br>
Fax: <a href="tel:%28816%29%20249-2439" value="+18162492439">(816) 249-2439</a> . <a href="http://www.antella-inc.com" target="_blank">www.antella-inc.com</a> <<a href="http://www.antella-inc.com" target="_blank">http://www.antella-inc.com</a>><br>
<br>
DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this electronic communication,<br>
as well as in any attachments, is privileged and confidential and<br>
intended solely for use by the addressee(s). Any other use,<br>
dissemination, or copying of this electronic communication is strictly<br>
prohibited and is an interference with Antella Consulting Engineers,<br>
inc. confidential business relationships. If you received this<br>
communication in error, please notify me immediately and permanently<br>
delete the original and any electronic or printed copies of this<br>
electronic communication.<br>
<br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 22:15:10 +0000<br>
From: "Dahlstrom, Aaron" <<a href="mailto:ADahlstrom@in-posse.com">ADahlstrom@in-posse.com</a>><br>
To: Doug Brenner <<a href="mailto:dougb@s3e.com">dougb@s3e.com</a>>, Ben Hollon <<a href="mailto:bhollon@antella-inc.com">bhollon@antella-inc.com</a>><br>
Cc: "Bldg-sim2 \(<a href="mailto:Bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">Bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>\)"<br>
<<a href="mailto:Bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">Bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>, "<a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:2BABD26CBBF3EB479F812328038B6CFEAE0097@AKFEX10PA.akf-eng.com">2BABD26CBBF3EB479F812328038B6CFEAE0097@AKFEX10PA.akf-eng.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
I am curious if others have used Kawneer's interpolation tables for assembly u-value on LEED submissions and had a good result.<br>
<br>
I have in the past been somewhat puzzled what to put in the below entry field of Table 1.4 if I am relying on Kawneer's tables.<br>
<br>
I imagine you could put "other" and say "manufacturer tables calculated per NFRC 100."<br>
<br>
Is this acceptable / have others have had any issues?<br>
Cross posting to bldg-sim as this has broader applicability than just Trace.<br>
<br>
[cid:image002.jpg@01CF4E9F.7BB7E690]<br>
<br>
Aaron Dahlstrom, PE, LEED(r) AP<br>
In Posse - A subsidiary of AKF| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102<br>
d: <a href="tel:215-282-6753" value="+12152826753">215-282-6753</a>| m: <a href="tel:267-507-5470" value="+12675075470">267-507-5470</a>| In Posse: <a href="tel:215-282-6800" value="+12152826800">215-282-6800</a>| AKF: 212-354-5656<br>
e: <a href="mailto:ADahlstrom@in-posse.com">ADahlstrom@in-posse.com</a> | in posse web: <a href="http://www.in-posse.com" target="_blank">www.in-posse.com</a><<a href="http://www.in-posse.com/" target="_blank">http://www.in-posse.com/</a>> | akf web: <a href="http://www.AKFGroup.com" target="_blank">www.AKFGroup.com</a><br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] On Behalf Of Doug Brenner<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 5:39 PM<br>
To: Ben Hollon<br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type<br>
<br>
In one case, I was able to get the NFRC calculation from the window manufacturer. This was on a design/build job where the windows had already been approved and purchased. I would add that it wasn't easy, the manufacturer would not help me until I got our GC involved.<br>
<br>
On another job that I'm currently working on, the architect provided a cut sheet for both the glass and the aluminum curtain wall system they are specifying. The curtain wall manufacturer's cut sheet had tables that listed the assembly u-values and SHGC's for different center of glass values (see attachment). I have not submtted this job yet but I hope the LEED reviewers will accept this approach. The manufacturer states the calculations are NFRC compliant.<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] On Behalf Of Richard Ellison<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 5:22 PM<br>
To: Ben Hollon<br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type<br>
<br>
Build the window assembles in windows from LBNL and then put those assemblies into your Trace libraries. Put them into your model and explain to the reviewer how you did it.<br>
<br>
On Apr 2, 2014, at 5:17 PM, "Ben Hollon" <<a href="mailto:bhollon@antella-inc.com">bhollon@antella-inc.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:bhollon@antella-inc.com">bhollon@antella-inc.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Working on a LEED energy model in Trace. I typically use HAP, which allows the input of a window frame type, and it then calculates the entire window assembly U-value and SC, rather than just the glass.<br>
<br>
I've had LEED reviewers come back and ask me for my window assembly calcs and I was able to show how HAP was doing that calc based on the frame type as well. However, I can't find anything similar in Trace, and I'm getting nervous about how to show assembly calculations to a LEED reviewer. I've had terrible luck in the past getting assembly values from the manufacturer as well.<br>
<br>
I spoke with CDS and they recommended modeling a small sliver of wall that is representative of the frame, which seems quite tedious.<br>
<br>
Has anyone either experienced this issue, and figured out a work around?<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
Ben Hollon,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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End of Trace-users Digest, Vol 64, Issue 2<br>
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