[Trace-users] Trace-users Digest, Vol 51, Issue 8

Thu Jan 24 11:11:16 PST 2013

Just wanted to Chime in-

Sorry Duncan, but, I want to clarify that your email is out of context. I'd
wager that email from Eric Sturm was referring to a pump (that has the
efficiency hard-coded into it in TRACE 700). The fan efficiency does not
work the same way.

In any case, when you use the automatic LEED calculations on the baseline -
it implements the efficiency regardless of the units (the final output is
the final output - the kw draw at the meter that is).

The rumor that "TRACE calculations were incorrect" resulted from the
90.1-2004 equations (and the way it was reported confused people) It isn't
a problem in the 90.1-2007 equations.

I wrote a web fan calculator some time ago, partly to silence this several
year old rumor (that TRACE calculations are incorrect).

http://energy-models.com/tools/leed-fan-calculator

Good luck with the LEED model-

Bob

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 12:54 PM, <trace-users-request at lists.onebuilding.org
> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Part load conditions (Houcine Tlemsani)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:52:42 -0600
> From: "Houcine Tlemsani" <houcine at mepengsolutions.com>
> To: "Duncan S. McClellan" <dmcclellan at ClarkNexsen.com>, "Caballero,
>         Catalina" <ccaballero at jalrw.com>,       "Scott Parker" <
> sparker at aeieng.com>,
>         <trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
> Cc: "Varghese, Saju" <saju at jalrw.com>
> Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Part load conditions
> Message-ID:
>         <761F5DDDFC87EC45A77ECB665FCAE557743B5F at 2003server.MEPENG.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> A diligent engineer should know if the calcs are performed correctly by
> performing back-checks.
>
> Trace calcs are as good as the data that was interred.  That's why
> back-checking all the outputs is a must.
>
> Never take software outputs for granted.
>
> My point is that the trace output is accepted by leed reviewer as long
> as it's done correctly.
>
>
>
>
>
> Houcine Tlemsani
>
> Mechanical Designer
>
> MEP Engineering Solutions
>
> houcine at mepengsolutions.com
>
> Phone:  850.429.8288
>
> Fax: 850.429.8334
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Duncan S. McClellan [mailto:dmcclellan at ClarkNexsen.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 12:44 PM
> To: Houcine Tlemsani; Caballero, Catalina; Scott Parker;
> trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> Cc: Varghese, Saju
> Subject: RE: [Trace-users] Part load conditions
>
>
>
> Here is a spreadsheet that can be used to back-check the software.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> [mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Duncan
> S. McClellan
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:36 PM
> To: Houcine Tlemsani; Caballero, Catalina; Scott Parker;
> trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> Cc: Varghese, Saju
> Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Part load conditions
>
>
>
> A diligent engineer should know if the calcs are performed correctly by
> performing back-checks.  You shouldn't depend on a LEED reviewer to
> determine the accuracy of your methodologies.  The fan power calcs are
> not always right.   Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.  If want
> to be sure, always back-check via hand calcs.  Scott's comment regarding
> "kW/cfm" is very important.  Don't input anything as "horsepower".  If
> you enter a 10hp fan, you're going to get a 10kW fan.  It's not a unit
> display issue, it's actually using 10kW.  Motor efficiency is already
> included in the Appendix G calc if you are performing it correctly. Here
> is a message I received from CDS several years ago regarding Horsepower
> units:
>
>
>
> Duncan,
>
>
>
> You're right.  3 HP does not equal 3 kW however when you select units of
> HP in TRACE, the program automatically assumes 75% efficiency and that
> 75% basically cancels the conversion between HP and kW (0.746).
>
>
>
> Eric Sturm
>
> CDS Marketing Engineer
>
> Trane Commercial Systems
>
> Ingersoll Rand
>
> 3600 Pammel Creek Rd
>
> La Crosse, WI 54601
>
>
>
> Office:  +1.608.787.3926
>
> Fax:  +1.608.787.3005
>
> Email:  cdshelp at trane.com <mailto:cdshelp at trane.com>
>
> Website:  www.tranecds.com <http://www.tranecds.com/>
>
>
>
>
>
> Duncan McClellan PE, BEMP, LEED AP
> Mechanical Engineer
>
> CLARK NEXSEN
> Architecture & Engineering
> 6160 Kempsville Circle Suite 200A
> Norfolk, VA 23502
> 757.455.5800 Office
> 757.455.5638 Fax
> dmcclellan at clarknexsen.com <mailto:dmcclellan at clarknexsen.com>
> www.clarknexsen.com <http://www.clarknexsen.com%20>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [
> mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Houcine
> Tlemsani
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 12:31 PM
> To: Caballero, Catalina; Scott Parker; trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> Cc: Varghese, Saju
> Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Part load conditions
>
>
>
> To All
>
>
>
> We have submitted the trace report fan power calcs to LEED on multiple
> jobs and we had no problems.
>
> The calcs are accurate.
>
>
>
> Houcine Tlemsani
>
> Mechanical Designer
>
> MEP Engineering Solutions
>
> houcine at mepengsolutions.com
>
> Phone:  850.429.8288
>
> Fax: 850.429.8334
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [
> mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of
> Caballero, Catalina
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 8:44 AM
> To: 'Scott Parker'; trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> Cc: Varghese, Saju
> Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Part load conditions
>
>
>
> Scott,
>
>
>
> What we have seen is that the Trace700 PRM Sizing works correctly  and
> you just need to submit the PRM report but I don't know if that
> particular requirement for  G3.1.3.15 Part 2 can be done using it.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
> Catalina Caballero, AIA. Assoc., LEED GA.
>
> Johnson, Avedano, Lopez, Rodriguez & Walewski
> Engineering Group, Inc.
>
> 2510 NW 97th Avenue, Suite 220, Miami, Florida 33172
>
> Tel. (305) 594-0660 Ext. 217 Fax (305) 594-0907
>
> Visit us online: www.jalrw.com <http://www.jalrw.com/>
>
>
>
>
>
> HVAC - Electrical - Plumbing - Fire Protection
> Sustainable Development - Commissioning
>
>
>
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
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> are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person
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>
> From: Scott Parker [mailto:sparker at aeieng.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:15 AM
> To: Caballero, Catalina; trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: RE: Part load conditions
>
>
>
> Catalina,
>
>
>
> I would guess that you are working on a LEED project.  From my
> experience the LEED reviewer will not accept the automatic fan
> calculation within Trace.  You need to manually calculate the maximum
> break HP for each fan for the baseline systems.  I recommend putting
> them in units of kW/CFM.  You will need to manually do the fan power
> calculations according to 90.1 and adjust for any "allowances" per 90.1.
> Please don't use the Full Load Energy Rate numbers I have used.  You'll
> need to calculate these for your specific conditions per 90.1
> requirements.
>
>
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> From: Caballero, Catalina [mailto:ccaballero at jalrw.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:03 AM
> To: Scott Parker; trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: RE: Part load conditions
>
>
>
> Can the software calculate it automatically with the following feature
> on?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Catalina
>
>
>
> From: Scott Parker [mailto:sparker at aeieng.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:01 AM
> To: Caballero, Catalina; trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: RE: Part load conditions
>
>
>
> Catalina,
>
>
>
> You can define a custom fan curve based on the 90.1 cubic equation, but
> I would recommend that you use the 90.1 fan curve library member that
> comes with the program.  The curve is the same for 2004 and 2007
> versions of 90.1.
>
>
>
>
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [
> mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of
> Caballero, Catalina
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 8:53 AM
> To: trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: [Trace-users] Part load conditions
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> How do you show this method on Trace 700 for System 6?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
>
> Catalina Caballero, AIA. Assoc., LEED GA.
>
> Johnson, Avedano, Lopez, Rodriguez & Walewski
> Engineering Group, Inc.
>
> 2510 NW 97th Avenue, Suite 220, Miami, Florida 33172
>
> Tel. (305) 594-0660 Ext. 217 Fax (305) 594-0907
>
> Visit us online: www.jalrw.com <http://www.jalrw.com/>
>
>
>
>
>
> HVAC - Electrical - Plumbing - Fire Protection
> Sustainable Development - Commissioning
>
>
>
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
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