[Trace-users] Trace-users Digest, Vol 51, Issue 8
Alcocer, Delia
DESTRADA at TRANE.COM
Thu Jan 24 12:01:08 PST 2013
Hi All,
The Fan Motor Efficiencies can be viewed under the "Overrides" button in the Create Systems / Fan Tab. The default Fan Motor Efficiency for the Primary fan is 90% and the default Mechanical Efficiency is 75%.
Delia Estrada
Project Leader
Trane Commercial Systems. CDS Marketing
Ingersoll Rand
[Trane_100YearLogo_2C-Email] Trane's 100 Years of Innovation. Then. Now. Always.
From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Bob Fassbender
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:11 AM
To: trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Trace-users Digest, Vol 51, Issue 8
Just wanted to Chime in-
Sorry Duncan, but, I want to clarify that your email is out of context. I'd wager that email from Eric Sturm was referring to a pump (that has the efficiency hard-coded into it in TRACE 700). The fan efficiency does not work the same way.
In any case, when you use the automatic LEED calculations on the baseline - it implements the efficiency regardless of the units (the final output is the final output - the kw draw at the meter that is).
The rumor that "TRACE calculations were incorrect" resulted from the 90.1-2004 equations (and the way it was reported confused people) It isn't a problem in the 90.1-2007 equations.
I wrote a web fan calculator some time ago, partly to silence this several year old rumor (that TRACE calculations are incorrect).
http://energy-models.com/tools/leed-fan-calculator
Good luck with the LEED model-
Bob
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 12:54 PM, <trace-users-request at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users-request at lists.onebuilding.org>> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Part load conditions (Houcine Tlemsani)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:52:42 -0600
From: "Houcine Tlemsani" <houcine at mepengsolutions.com<mailto:houcine at mepengsolutions.com>>
To: "Duncan S. McClellan" <dmcclellan at ClarkNexsen.com<mailto:dmcclellan at ClarkNexsen.com>>, "Caballero,
Catalina" <ccaballero at jalrw.com<mailto:ccaballero at jalrw.com>>, "Scott Parker" <sparker at aeieng.com<mailto:sparker at aeieng.com>>,
<trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>>
Cc: "Varghese, Saju" <saju at jalrw.com<mailto:saju at jalrw.com>>
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Part load conditions
Message-ID:
<761F5DDDFC87EC45A77ECB665FCAE557743B5F at 2003server.MEPENG.local<mailto:761F5DDDFC87EC45A77ECB665FCAE557743B5F at 2003server.MEPENG.local>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
A diligent engineer should know if the calcs are performed correctly by
performing back-checks.
Trace calcs are as good as the data that was interred. That's why
back-checking all the outputs is a must.
Never take software outputs for granted.
My point is that the trace output is accepted by leed reviewer as long
as it's done correctly.
Houcine Tlemsani
Mechanical Designer
MEP Engineering Solutions
houcine at mepengsolutions.com<mailto:houcine at mepengsolutions.com>
Phone: 850.429.8288<tel:850.429.8288>
Fax: 850.429.8334<tel:850.429.8334>
________________________________
From: Duncan S. McClellan [mailto:dmcclellan at ClarkNexsen.com<mailto:dmcclellan at ClarkNexsen.com>]
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 12:44 PM
To: Houcine Tlemsani; Caballero, Catalina; Scott Parker;
trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Cc: Varghese, Saju
Subject: RE: [Trace-users] Part load conditions
Here is a spreadsheet that can be used to back-check the software.
From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
[mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Duncan
S. McClellan
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:36 PM
To: Houcine Tlemsani; Caballero, Catalina; Scott Parker;
trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Cc: Varghese, Saju
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Part load conditions
A diligent engineer should know if the calcs are performed correctly by
performing back-checks. You shouldn't depend on a LEED reviewer to
determine the accuracy of your methodologies. The fan power calcs are
not always right. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. If want
to be sure, always back-check via hand calcs. Scott's comment regarding
"kW/cfm" is very important. Don't input anything as "horsepower". If
you enter a 10hp fan, you're going to get a 10kW fan. It's not a unit
display issue, it's actually using 10kW. Motor efficiency is already
included in the Appendix G calc if you are performing it correctly. Here
is a message I received from CDS several years ago regarding Horsepower
units:
Duncan,
You're right. 3 HP does not equal 3 kW however when you select units of
HP in TRACE, the program automatically assumes 75% efficiency and that
75% basically cancels the conversion between HP and kW (0.746).
Eric Sturm
CDS Marketing Engineer
Trane Commercial Systems
Ingersoll Rand
3600 Pammel Creek Rd
La Crosse, WI 54601
Office: +1.608.787.3926
Fax: +1.608.787.3005
Email: cdshelp at trane.com<mailto:cdshelp at trane.com> <mailto:cdshelp at trane.com<mailto:cdshelp at trane.com>>
Website: www.tranecds.com<http://www.tranecds.com> <http://www.tranecds.com/>
Duncan McClellan PE, BEMP, LEED AP
Mechanical Engineer
CLARK NEXSEN
Architecture & Engineering
6160 Kempsville Circle Suite 200A
Norfolk, VA 23502
757.455.5800<tel:757.455.5800> Office
757.455.5638<tel:757.455.5638> Fax
dmcclellan at clarknexsen.com<mailto:dmcclellan at clarknexsen.com> <mailto:dmcclellan at clarknexsen.com<mailto:dmcclellan at clarknexsen.com>>
www.clarknexsen.com<http://www.clarknexsen.com> <http://www.clarknexsen.com%20>
From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [
mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Houcine
Tlemsani
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 12:31 PM
To: Caballero, Catalina; Scott Parker; trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Cc: Varghese, Saju
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Part load conditions
To All
We have submitted the trace report fan power calcs to LEED on multiple
jobs and we had no problems.
The calcs are accurate.
Houcine Tlemsani
Mechanical Designer
MEP Engineering Solutions
houcine at mepengsolutions.com<mailto:houcine at mepengsolutions.com>
Phone: 850.429.8288<tel:850.429.8288>
Fax: 850.429.8334<tel:850.429.8334>
________________________________
From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [
mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of
Caballero, Catalina
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 8:44 AM
To: 'Scott Parker'; trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Cc: Varghese, Saju
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Part load conditions
Scott,
What we have seen is that the Trace700 PRM Sizing works correctly and
you just need to submit the PRM report but I don't know if that
particular requirement for G3.1.3.15 Part 2 can be done using it.
Thanks.
Catalina Caballero, AIA. Assoc., LEED GA.
Johnson, Avedano, Lopez, Rodriguez & Walewski
Engineering Group, Inc.
2510 NW 97th Avenue, Suite 220, Miami, Florida 33172
Tel. (305) 594-0660 Ext. 217<tel:%28305%29%20594-0660%20Ext.%20217> Fax (305) 594-0907<tel:%28305%29%20594-0907>
Visit us online: www.jalrw.com<http://www.jalrw.com> <http://www.jalrw.com/>
HVAC - Electrical - Plumbing - Fire Protection
Sustainable Development - Commissioning
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From: Scott Parker [mailto:sparker at aeieng.com<mailto:sparker at aeieng.com>]
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:15 AM
To: Caballero, Catalina; trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: RE: Part load conditions
Catalina,
I would guess that you are working on a LEED project. From my
experience the LEED reviewer will not accept the automatic fan
calculation within Trace. You need to manually calculate the maximum
break HP for each fan for the baseline systems. I recommend putting
them in units of kW/CFM. You will need to manually do the fan power
calculations according to 90.1 and adjust for any "allowances" per 90.1.
Please don't use the Full Load Energy Rate numbers I have used. You'll
need to calculate these for your specific conditions per 90.1
requirements.
Scott
From: Caballero, Catalina [mailto:ccaballero at jalrw.com<mailto:ccaballero at jalrw.com>]
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:03 AM
To: Scott Parker; trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: RE: Part load conditions
Can the software calculate it automatically with the following feature
on?
Regards,
Catalina
From: Scott Parker [mailto:sparker at aeieng.com<mailto:sparker at aeieng.com>]
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:01 AM
To: Caballero, Catalina; trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: RE: Part load conditions
Catalina,
You can define a custom fan curve based on the 90.1 cubic equation, but
I would recommend that you use the 90.1 fan curve library member that
comes with the program. The curve is the same for 2004 and 2007
versions of 90.1.
Scott
From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [
mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of
Caballero, Catalina
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 8:53 AM
To: trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Trace-users] Part load conditions
Hi all,
How do you show this method on Trace 700 for System 6?
Thanks,
Catalina Caballero, AIA. Assoc., LEED GA.
Johnson, Avedano, Lopez, Rodriguez & Walewski
Engineering Group, Inc.
2510 NW 97th Avenue, Suite 220, Miami, Florida 33172
Tel. (305) 594-0660 Ext. 217<tel:%28305%29%20594-0660%20Ext.%20217> Fax (305) 594-0907<tel:%28305%29%20594-0907>
Visit us online: www.jalrw.com<http://www.jalrw.com> <http://www.jalrw.com/>
HVAC - Electrical - Plumbing - Fire Protection
Sustainable Development - Commissioning
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