Just wanted to Chime in-<div><br></div><div>Sorry Duncan, but, I want to clarify that your email is out of context. I'd wager that email from Eric Sturm was referring to a pump (that has the efficiency hard-coded into it in TRACE 700). The fan efficiency does not work the same way. </div>
<div><br></div><div>In any case, when you use the automatic LEED calculations on the baseline - it implements the efficiency regardless of the units (the final output is the final output - the kw draw at the meter that is).</div>
<div><br></div><div>The rumor that "TRACE calculations were incorrect" resulted from the 90.1-2004 equations (and the way it was reported confused people) It isn't a problem in the 90.1-2007 equations.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I wrote a web fan calculator some time ago, partly to silence this several year old rumor (that TRACE calculations are incorrect).</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://energy-models.com/tools/leed-fan-calculator">http://energy-models.com/tools/leed-fan-calculator</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>Good luck with the LEED model- </div><div><br></div><div>Bob<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 12:54 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:trace-users-request@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">trace-users-request@lists.onebuilding.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: Part load conditions (Houcine Tlemsani)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:52:42 -0600<br>
From: "Houcine Tlemsani" <<a href="mailto:houcine@mepengsolutions.com">houcine@mepengsolutions.com</a>><br>
To: "Duncan S. McClellan" <dmcclellan@ClarkNexsen.com>, "Caballero,<br>
Catalina" <<a href="mailto:ccaballero@jalrw.com">ccaballero@jalrw.com</a>>, "Scott Parker" <<a href="mailto:sparker@aeieng.com">sparker@aeieng.com</a>>,<br>
<<a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Cc: "Varghese, Saju" <<a href="mailto:saju@jalrw.com">saju@jalrw.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Part load conditions<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<761F5DDDFC87EC45A77ECB665FCAE557743B5F@2003server.MEPENG.local><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
A diligent engineer should know if the calcs are performed correctly by<br>
performing back-checks.<br>
<br>
Trace calcs are as good as the data that was interred. That's why<br>
back-checking all the outputs is a must.<br>
<br>
Never take software outputs for granted.<br>
<br>
My point is that the trace output is accepted by leed reviewer as long<br>
as it's done correctly.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Houcine Tlemsani<br>
<br>
Mechanical Designer<br>
<br>
MEP Engineering Solutions<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:houcine@mepengsolutions.com">houcine@mepengsolutions.com</a><br>
<br>
Phone: <a href="tel:850.429.8288" value="+18504298288">850.429.8288</a><br>
<br>
Fax: <a href="tel:850.429.8334" value="+18504298334">850.429.8334</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
<br>
From: Duncan S. McClellan [mailto:<a href="mailto:dmcclellan@ClarkNexsen.com">dmcclellan@ClarkNexsen.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 12:44 PM<br>
To: Houcine Tlemsani; Caballero, Catalina; Scott Parker;<br>
<a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Cc: Varghese, Saju<br>
Subject: RE: [Trace-users] Part load conditions<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Here is a spreadsheet that can be used to back-check the software.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] On Behalf Of Duncan<br>
S. McClellan<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:36 PM<br>
To: Houcine Tlemsani; Caballero, Catalina; Scott Parker;<br>
<a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Cc: Varghese, Saju<br>
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Part load conditions<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A diligent engineer should know if the calcs are performed correctly by<br>
performing back-checks. You shouldn't depend on a LEED reviewer to<br>
determine the accuracy of your methodologies. The fan power calcs are<br>
not always right. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. If want<br>
to be sure, always back-check via hand calcs. Scott's comment regarding<br>
"kW/cfm" is very important. Don't input anything as "horsepower". If<br>
you enter a 10hp fan, you're going to get a 10kW fan. It's not a unit<br>
display issue, it's actually using 10kW. Motor efficiency is already<br>
included in the Appendix G calc if you are performing it correctly. Here<br>
is a message I received from CDS several years ago regarding Horsepower<br>
units:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Duncan,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
You're right. 3 HP does not equal 3 kW however when you select units of<br>
HP in TRACE, the program automatically assumes 75% efficiency and that<br>
75% basically cancels the conversion between HP and kW (0.746).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Eric Sturm<br>
<br>
CDS Marketing Engineer<br>
<br>
Trane Commercial Systems<br>
<br>
Ingersoll Rand<br>
<br>
3600 Pammel Creek Rd<br>
<br>
La Crosse, WI 54601<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Office: +1.608.787.3926<br>
<br>
Fax: +1.608.787.3005<br>
<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:cdshelp@trane.com">cdshelp@trane.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:cdshelp@trane.com">cdshelp@trane.com</a>><br>
<br>
Website: <a href="http://www.tranecds.com" target="_blank">www.tranecds.com</a> <<a href="http://www.tranecds.com/" target="_blank">http://www.tranecds.com/</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Duncan McClellan PE, BEMP, LEED AP<br>
Mechanical Engineer<br>
<br>
CLARK NEXSEN<br>
Architecture & Engineering<br>
6160 Kempsville Circle Suite 200A<br>
Norfolk, VA 23502<br>
<a href="tel:757.455.5800" value="+17574555800">757.455.5800</a> Office<br>
<a href="tel:757.455.5638" value="+17574555638">757.455.5638</a> Fax<br>
<a href="mailto:dmcclellan@clarknexsen.com">dmcclellan@clarknexsen.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:dmcclellan@clarknexsen.com">dmcclellan@clarknexsen.com</a>><br>
<a href="http://www.clarknexsen.com" target="_blank">www.clarknexsen.com</a> <<a href="http://www.clarknexsen.com" target="_blank">http://www.clarknexsen.com</a>%20><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<br>
mailto:<a href="mailto:trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] On Behalf Of Houcine<br>
Tlemsani<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 12:31 PM<br>
To: Caballero, Catalina; Scott Parker; <a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Cc: Varghese, Saju<br>
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Part load conditions<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
To All<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
We have submitted the trace report fan power calcs to LEED on multiple<br>
jobs and we had no problems.<br>
<br>
The calcs are accurate.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Houcine Tlemsani<br>
<br>
Mechanical Designer<br>
<br>
MEP Engineering Solutions<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:houcine@mepengsolutions.com">houcine@mepengsolutions.com</a><br>
<br>
Phone: <a href="tel:850.429.8288" value="+18504298288">850.429.8288</a><br>
<br>
Fax: <a href="tel:850.429.8334" value="+18504298334">850.429.8334</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<br>
mailto:<a href="mailto:trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
Caballero, Catalina<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 8:44 AM<br>
To: 'Scott Parker'; <a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Cc: Varghese, Saju<br>
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Part load conditions<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Scott,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
What we have seen is that the Trace700 PRM Sizing works correctly and<br>
you just need to submit the PRM report but I don't know if that<br>
particular requirement for G3.1.3.15 Part 2 can be done using it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Catalina Caballero, AIA. Assoc., LEED GA.<br>
<br>
Johnson, Avedano, Lopez, Rodriguez & Walewski<br>
Engineering Group, Inc.<br>
<br>
2510 NW 97th Avenue, Suite 220, Miami, Florida 33172<br>
<br>
Tel. <a href="tel:%28305%29%20594-0660%20Ext.%20217" value="+13055940660">(305) 594-0660 Ext. 217</a> Fax <a href="tel:%28305%29%20594-0907" value="+13055940907">(305) 594-0907</a><br>
<br>
Visit us online: <a href="http://www.jalrw.com" target="_blank">www.jalrw.com</a> <<a href="http://www.jalrw.com/" target="_blank">http://www.jalrw.com/</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
HVAC - Electrical - Plumbing - Fire Protection<br>
Sustainable Development - Commissioning<br>
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From: Scott Parker [mailto:<a href="mailto:sparker@aeieng.com">sparker@aeieng.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:15 AM<br>
To: Caballero, Catalina; <a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: RE: Part load conditions<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Catalina,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I would guess that you are working on a LEED project. From my<br>
experience the LEED reviewer will not accept the automatic fan<br>
calculation within Trace. You need to manually calculate the maximum<br>
break HP for each fan for the baseline systems. I recommend putting<br>
them in units of kW/CFM. You will need to manually do the fan power<br>
calculations according to 90.1 and adjust for any "allowances" per 90.1.<br>
Please don't use the Full Load Energy Rate numbers I have used. You'll<br>
need to calculate these for your specific conditions per 90.1<br>
requirements.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Scott<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Caballero, Catalina [mailto:<a href="mailto:ccaballero@jalrw.com">ccaballero@jalrw.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:03 AM<br>
To: Scott Parker; <a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: RE: Part load conditions<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Can the software calculate it automatically with the following feature<br>
on?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Catalina<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Scott Parker [mailto:<a href="mailto:sparker@aeieng.com">sparker@aeieng.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:01 AM<br>
To: Caballero, Catalina; <a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: RE: Part load conditions<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Catalina,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
You can define a custom fan curve based on the 90.1 cubic equation, but<br>
I would recommend that you use the 90.1 fan curve library member that<br>
comes with the program. The curve is the same for 2004 and 2007<br>
versions of 90.1.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Scott<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<br>
mailto:<a href="mailto:trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
Caballero, Catalina<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 8:53 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trace-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: [Trace-users] Part load conditions<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
How do you show this method on Trace 700 for System 6?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Catalina Caballero, AIA. Assoc., LEED GA.<br>
<br>
Johnson, Avedano, Lopez, Rodriguez & Walewski<br>
Engineering Group, Inc.<br>
<br>
2510 NW 97th Avenue, Suite 220, Miami, Florida 33172<br>
<br>
Tel. <a href="tel:%28305%29%20594-0660%20Ext.%20217" value="+13055940660">(305) 594-0660 Ext. 217</a> Fax <a href="tel:%28305%29%20594-0907" value="+13055940907">(305) 594-0907</a><br>
<br>
Visit us online: <a href="http://www.jalrw.com" target="_blank">www.jalrw.com</a> <<a href="http://www.jalrw.com/" target="_blank">http://www.jalrw.com/</a>><br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
HVAC - Electrical - Plumbing - Fire Protection<br>
Sustainable Development - Commissioning<br>
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This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are<br>
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End of Trace-users Digest, Vol 51, Issue 8<br>
******************************************<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>