[Equest-users] pool heating baseline system

[Dahlstrom, Aaron]

Mirza -

I agree with your logic about the intent of the standard and its definition of non-regulated process. This may be a prejudice that harkens back to LEED v2.1, but if I see a regulation in 90.1 for efficiency, I assume that ASHRAE intended to "regulate" the energy use of that category, and thus it falls on the non-process side of things. While there may be circumstances where "pool heating" might seem more like a process load (eg freeze protection for an outdoor decorative fountain in a cold climate?), it seems like the intent of 90.1 was to regulate pool heating energy usage for a large proportion of typical pool installations.

I think your question re: how to interpret the wording of G3.1.11 is important.
On the face of App G, the standard appears to reward heat pump pool heaters, by allowing them to compare to straight resistance heat in the baseline.
In my admittedly limited experience, I haven't seen an electric resistance pool heater, so I share your reservations about making a false comparison. (then again ... http://www.little-giant.com/water-heating-products/pool-spa-heaters/electric-pool-spa-heaters.html)

If we can't find help for you on this list, an "unofficial interpretation" by the 90.1 Standards Committee might be the way to go.
(Maybe Nick could even slip the question in when he's out at the winter meetings this week ;) ?)

Aaron Dahlstrom , PE, LEED(r) AP
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From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Mirza Sajjal
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 7:36 PM
To: Nick Caton; Pasha Korber-Gonzalez
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] pool heating baseline system

Pasha/Nick,
Thanks for the response.

I would assume pool space conditioning and pool water heating are not process energy (?) as 90.1 defines process energy as:
"Energy consumed in support of a manufacturing, industrial, or commercial process other than conditioning spaces and maintaining comfort and amenities for the occupants of a building."

I did notice the baseline efficiency for heat pump pool heaters in table 7, but was trying to figure out if the system types had to be the same in baseline and proposed since App. G mentions only energy source: "Where the energy source is electricity, the heating method shall be electric resistance."

Considering the savings are significant when using electric resistance pool heating in the baseline, I want to prevent any issues I may encounter during the LEED review process since the reviewer may have a different interpretation/opinion.

Mirza

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick Caton
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 7:05 PM
To: Pasha Korber-Gonzalez; Mirza Sajjal
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] pool heating baseline system

Whether or not it's a process load may come down to semantics (I think you can make a case either way if you reference the 90.1 glossary terms - see 'process load' and 'process energy'), but I think it's moot in a broad sense...

If there weren't significant savings to be credited, then I'd probably try to call it a process load and make each model identical.  That would be the simplest and most time efficient approach.

However, if there are major savings using heatpumps relative to "conventional" heating means, then even if it is a "process load" I would pursue modeling them differently as an exceptional calculation.

Oh, and 90.1 does define a baseline efficiency (COP) for heat pump pool heating equipment:  Take a closer look the table in chapter 7.  You might also review the prescriptive pool requirements for other means to differentiate the proposed design other than in heating efficiency.

Best of luck!

~Nick

[cid:image001.jpg at 01CBBCD0.1295FCB0]

NICK CATON, E.I.T.
PROJECT ENGINEER
Smith & Boucher Engineers
25501 west valley parkway
olathe ks 66061
direct 913 344.0036
fax 913 345.0617
www.smithboucher.com

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Pasha Korber-Gonzalez
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 4:50 PM
To: Mirza Sajjal
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] pool heating baseline system

Isn't the pool heating system considered as a process load for 90.1 since it has no effect on the overall building design?  It would be exactly the same in the baseline as it is for the proposed case.

...just a thought, although I haven't run into this scenario with any of my sim projects.

Pasha


On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Mirza Sajjal <ms2995 at gmail.com<mailto:ms2995 at gmail.com>> wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the baseline pool heating system should be if the design calls for heat pumps? Per App. G Table G3.1.11 the requirement is that the energy source be the same, in this case electricity. Can we model the baseline as electric water heaters or should the system type (heat pumps) also remain the same in the baseline since electric resistance pool heating is unconventional? Theres a huge energy savings difference between the two baselines and was wondering how others have modeled this in terms of LEED.
Your opinion and insight is much appreciated.
Thanks in advance for any response.

Mirza

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