[Bldg-sim] MacroFlo and ApacheHVAC coupling

Fri May 31 22:48:17 PDT 2019

Karol,

Just chiming in here for a quick clarification and adding some potentially helpful info…

What Neil has said below is indeed the way to go if you wish to pressurize a space and force all air introduced by the mechanical system modeled in ApacheHVAC to exit through MacroFlo openings in the building envelope.

You can also mechanically extract some portion of the flow at a controlled rate. This might be the case for an application with an extract fan removing a known air volume flow rate at the top of your atrium, whilst the window openings are used to vent the remainder––i.e., rather than all mechanically introduced air being forced to exit via the window openings––and in the winter, when the atrium envelope openings are closed, using the warm air mechanically extracted from the atrium to heat other spaces in the building.

The entire atrium or building model can also be either 100% natural ventilation (driven only by wind pressure and/or thermal stack effect) or 100% mechanical ventilation (no openings, but still thermally stratified).

In all such cases, there can be parallel paths for stack-effect-driven flows, as may be used to model the intensified stack effect immediately adjacent to the hot interior surface of atrium glazing heated by solar radiation (i.e., a ‘zonal’ model, as described in the attached paper).

Lastly, you can use ApacheHVAC to heat or cool air in just one segment of a MacroFlo ventilation flow path, so that the addition or subtraction of heat is mechanical, but the airflow from there to conditioned spaces is buoyancy-driven. For example, you can use a coil or spray chamber to locally cool the air in the upper-most segment of a passive downdraft cool tower, and then allow MacroFlo to model the wind-pressure and thermal buoyancy-driven flow of that mechanically cooled air down the tower, into the building, and then up and out of the building as it is heated by internal and solar gains.

You can set up control sequences to combine any of the above to emulate various combinations of natural ventilation, mechanical HVAC systems, and human and/or mechanical operation of openings in the building envelope. These control sequences can be driven by logical considerations, such as indoor vs. outdoor temperature, fuzzy versions of that logic that might represent the less consistent behavior of occupants opening and closing windows, and even the addition of some random behavior, as might occur when forgetful occupants leave the windows open when they ought not to or fail to open them under ideal conditions.

The attached SimBuild 2012 paper and related 2013 presentation on modeling passive downdraft cool towers and stack-effect ventilated atrium cover several aspects of the above, which you may find helpful. Whereas there have been many updates and enhancements of capabilities in ApacheHVAC since then, most of what’s in the two attached documents remains as presented there, and should thus be fully applicable using a current version of the software.

Cheers,
Timothy

[IES-email2014]<http://www.iesve.com/>

Timothy Moore
Senior Product Manager

C:

  +1 (415) 810-2495

T:

  +1 (404) 806-2018

T:

  +1 (617) 502-2085

Internal IP ext. 8549

http://www.iesve.com<http://www.iesve.com/>

Integrated Environmental Solutions Limited. Registered in Scotland No. SC151456
Registered Office - Helix Building, West Of Scotland Science Park, Glasgow G20 0SP

Email Disclaimer<http://www.iesve.com/disclaimer.html>

From: Bldg-sim <bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> On Behalf Of Karol Bandurski via Bldg-sim
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2019 12:04 AM
To: 'Chris Yates' <chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com>; 'Neil Shankland' <Neil.Shankland at burohappold.com>
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MarcoFlow and ApacheHVAC coupling

Dear Chris and Neil

Thank you for your tips!

I hope it lead us to the operating model.

If you know also some reports/guidebook/webinar in this topic I would be grateful for information.

Kind regards,
Karol

From: Chris Yates [mailto:chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2019 11:58 AM
To: Neil Shankland
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>; Karol BANDURSKI
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] MarcoFlow and ApacheHVAC coupling

Just adding to Neil's comment regards crashing due to over pressurisation.  You should do some runs with various timesteps. Usually, the shorter the time step the more stable.
On 24 May 2019 16:04, "Neil Shankland" <Neil.Shankland at burohappold.com<mailto:Neil.Shankland at burohappold.com>> wrote:
Hi Karol,
The trick to getting ApacheHVAC and Macroflo to work together in IES VE is the use of a flow controller set to zero at an appropriate point in the HVAC network. For your example, the HVAC network would contain a single zone where you want to add mechanical supply. The upstream side of this zone would have a flow controller set to provide the required flowrate and the downstream side would have a flow controller set to zero volume flow, on continuously. With Macroflo and HVAC both active in ApacheSim, the mechanical supply will be introduced, as defined in the HVAC network, and Macroflo will calculate what subsequently happens to that air (provided there are sufficient Macroflo openings to prevent the run crashing due to overpressurisation). Hope this helps.
Regards,
Neil
[Leeds 30-E-footer-regional.png]

From: Bldg-sim <bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>> On Behalf Of Karol BANDURSKI via Bldg-sim
Sent: 24 May 2019 15:47
To: 'Chris Yates' <chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com<mailto:chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com>>
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MarcoFlow and ApacheHVAC coupling
** External Email **
Hi Chris,
Thank you for your advice!
For now the issue is that we would like to do it as good as possible using IES VE.
Kind regards,
Karol

From: Chris Yates [mailto:chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 4:38 PM
To: Karol Bandurski <karol.bandurski at put.poznan.pl<mailto:karol.bandurski at put.poznan.pl>>
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MarcoFlow and ApacheHVAC coupling
Hi Karol
You could try one of the "RoomAirSettings" models in E+.
There should be an example file in the E+ installation directory that can be run "out of the box". You could mess with this. Rather than coupling network airflow and hvac network these models are typically based on 1d finite elements or fixed (known) temperature gradients and don't require the zone to be split horizontally.
Best
Chris

On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 11:27 AM Karol Bandurski via Bldg-sim <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>> wrote:
Dear All

My question refer to IES VE.

Do you know some description how couple Atrium MacroFlow calculation, based
on temperature stratification with flow forced by fans defined in
ApacheHVAC?

We prepare some model with students. Atrium is divided on three air zones
and MacroFlow calculate flows caused by temperature differences, but we
would like to add there also flow caused by mechanical system, e.g. inlet in
the lowest part and outlets in windows in the highest part of Atrium.

Kind regards,
Karol
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Karol BANDURSKI M. Sc.
Faculty of Civil and Environemntal Engeneering
Division of Heating, Air Conditioning and Air Protection
Poznan University of Technology
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Karol_Bandurski<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FKarol_Bandurski&data=02%7C01%7CNeil.Shankland%40burohappold.com%7Cbe09fc72911441eb5e1408d6e056c88c%7C50ee6418869e48f5a9823607fcee1e1d%7C0%7C0%7C636943060671447761&sdata=%2FU1IlAAOcYwgKju%2F9XX%2BiUyEZZoVL2lhlIlq%2Bmxj4Mk%3D&reserved=0>
www.put.poznan.pl/~karol.bandurski<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.put.poznan.pl%2F~karol.bandurski&data=02%7C01%7CNeil.Shankland%40burohappold.com%7Cbe09fc72911441eb5e1408d6e056c88c%7C50ee6418869e48f5a9823607fcee1e1d%7C0%7C0%7C636943060671457750&sdata=TS3F7YijB67VPDkW0exTnX2aTfN0qI55BxPr0Nx4Wbs%3D&reserved=0>

_______________________________________________
Bldg-sim mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.onebuilding.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fbldg-sim-onebuilding.org&data=02%7C01%7CNeil.Shankland%40burohappold.com%7Cbe09fc72911441eb5e1408d6e056c88c%7C50ee6418869e48f5a9823607fcee1e1d%7C0%7C0%7C636943060671457750&sdata=Xniz7rF13dHwn8NA1XTH5A0ujaTVtpAUidLhIa9W%2Fq0%3D&reserved=0>
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG<mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>

This transmission is confidential and intended solely for the person or organisation to whom it is correctly addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this transmission, you should not take any action in reliance on it. Further, this transmission may contain confidential design and other information owned by Buro Happold Ltd. You should not copy, distribute, use, offer for sale or hire such information or in any way infringe the design and intellectual property rights of Buro Happold Ltd. It is intended that communication by email from Buro Happold Ltd or its employees is limited to communications connected to the services provided by Buro Happold Ltd. Buro Happold Ltd accepts no liability for any communications not connected to the services it provides. Computer viruses may be transmitted or downloaded onto your computer system via email communication. It is the recipient’s responsibility to take any action necessary to prevent computer viruses being transmitted in this way. Accordingly, Buro Happold Ltd disclaims all responsibility which arises directly or indirectly from such transmission of computer viruses. Buro Happold Ltd. Registered in England: 2049511.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20190601/b0d66a8f/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image002.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 6298 bytes
Desc: image002.jpg
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20190601/b0d66a8f/attachment-0001.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image003.png
Type: image/png
Size: 55641 bytes
Desc: image003.png
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20190601/b0d66a8f/attachment-0001.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Passive downdraft Cool Towers, DV, & Atrium - IES VE ApacheHVAC + MacroFlo - T-Moore  .pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 6186494 bytes
Desc: Passive downdraft Cool Towers, DV, & Atrium - IES VE ApacheHVAC + MacroFlo - T-Moore  .pdf
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20190601/b0d66a8f/attachment-0002.pdf>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Zonal Approach to Modeling Thermally Stratified Atria - final - SimBuild 2012 p277v1e .pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 1078694 bytes
Desc: Zonal Approach to Modeling Thermally Stratified Atria - final - SimBuild 2012 p277v1e .pdf
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20190601/b0d66a8f/attachment-0003.pdf>