[Bldg-sim] Baseline HVAC system type question
Jason Glazer via Bldg-sim
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Tue Feb 21 09:40:19 PST 2017
Here is the URL for the report:
http://www.pnnl.gov/main/publications/external/technical_reports/PNNL-25130.pdf
On 2/21/2017 11:37 AM, Julien MARREC via Bldg-sim wrote:
> Chris,
>
> There's a PNNL report that came out in 2016 that aims to
> fill this kind of gaps (though I feel there still are
> gaps, and sometimes I don't 100% agree with their
> interpretation). The openstudio-standards project which I
> contribute to that aims to automate baseline creation is
> based on this report
>
> The title is ASHRAE 90.1-2010 Performance Rating Method
> Reference Manual.
> The report is intended to be a reference manual for the
> Appendix G Performance Rating Method (PRM) of ASHRAE
> Standard 90.1-2010, but most holds true for 2007.
>
> Best,
> Julien
>
>
> Envoyé de mon iPhone
>
> Le 21 févr. 2017 à 15:31, Chris Jones via Bldg-sim
> <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>> a écrit :
>
>> Thank you Nick,
>>
>> The responses received point to using a different
>> baseline system and I agree with those interpretations.
>> In my specific case, high rise residential with retail on
>> the main floor, I am going to use System 1, PTAC for the
>> residential and System 3, PSZ for the retail.
>>
>> However, it seems to me that I could also assign System 5
>> to the retail spaces. The non-denominate space (retail)
>> is larger than 20,000 ft2 and the building is large
>> enough to meet the threshold for System 5.
>>
>> The standard doesn’t explicitly indicate that the
>> non-denominate spaces are to be on System 3 or 4
>> therefore, I believe I could select System 5 although it
>> would not be an apples-to-apples comparison. The proposed
>> design has packaged single zone systems serving the
>> retail spaces making tenant sub-metering simpler.
>>
>> **
>>
>> <image001.jpg>
>> <http://www.rwdi.com/assets/logos/RWDI-logo.gif>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Christopher Jones, **P.Eng. *| Senior Energy Analyst
>> *RWDI*
>> 901 King Street West, Suite 400, Toronto, ON M5V 3H5 Canada
>> Tel: (519) 823-1311 ext 2052
>> rwdi.com <http://www.rwdi.com/>
>>
>> *From:*Nicholas Caton
>> [mailto:Nicholas.Caton at schneider-electric.com]
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 20, 2017 10:47 AM
>> *To:* Javed Iqbal; Chris Jones
>> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
>> *Subject:* RE: [Bldg-sim] Baseline HVAC system type question
>>
>> Right.
>>
>> My framework is typically to piece this out in two steps:
>>
>> 1.Ignoring the possibility of G31.1.1A exceptions to
>> start, determine the baseline system type for the whole
>> building using the other prescriptions in play. In this
>> case it would have to be system type 1 / 2 due to the
>> predominantly residential situation.
>>
>> 2.Consider whether ANY /singular or combined areas/ of
>> the facility meet the 2 consistent requirements of G3.1.1A:
>>
>> a.Total sum area > 20,000ft2 (aside: I’ve deliberately
>> put forward alternative baseline systems where I haven’t
>> met this threshold, but it totally makes sense to have a
>> distinct/different baseline system)
>>
>> b.“nonpredominant conditions” - this isn’t a glossary
>> term and is subject to interpretation. My successful
>> interpretations (as measured by non-rejected LEED
>> submissions) have included:
>>
>> i.non-residential vs. residential occupancies (this is
>> pretty clear cut as a listed example in the standard)
>>
>> ii.very different load profiles (i.e. large greenhouse
>> attached to a school, or where in the proposed design
>> you’re excluding cooling for a warehouse)
>>
>> iii.very different occupancy/usage profiles (i.e. a chunk
>> of the facility requires 24/7 ventilation or process
>> loads resulting in very different system operations)
>>
>> The interpretation below would look to agree and clash
>> with my usual interpretation depending on circumstance.
>> At the end of the day I feel the presence of
>> non-predominant conditions should not substantially help
>> nor hinder the baseline case in an artificial manner
>> relative to the proposed case. So long as you’re holding
>> to that “spirit” of the standard, you should be fine
>> specifying alternative baseline systems.
>>
>> ~Nick
>>
>> <image002.png>
>>
>> *Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP*
>>
>> Senior Energy Engineer
>> Regional Energy Engineering Manager
>>
>> Energy and Sustainability Services
>> Schneider Electric
>>
>>
>>
>> D 913.564.6361
>> M 785.410.3317
>> F 913.564.6380
>> E nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com
>> <mailto:nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> 15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
>> Suite 204
>> Lenexa, KS 66219
>> United States
>>
>> <image003.png>
>>
>> *From:*Bldg-sim
>> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Javed Iqbal via Bldg-sim
>> *Sent:* Friday, February 17, 2017 7:47 AM
>> *To:* Chris Jones <Christopher.Jones at rwdi.com
>> <mailto:Christopher.Jones at rwdi.com>>
>> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Baseline HVAC system type question
>>
>> Dear Chris,
>>
>> The ASHRAE INTERPRETATION IC 90.1-2007
>> <https://www.google.hu/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwjfrKS8oJfSAhXHiRoKHeV4CB4QFggrMAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ashrae.org%2FFile%2520Library%2FdocLib%2FPublic%2F20100603_ic90120075.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGEpwM5bZsLYbRcfbO4CiEaSuvcAA&sig2=EN5_0kGzKchtWsr_RjQ1lQ> might
>> help you. It states
>>
>> /Exception a to G3.1.1 should be utilized first to
>> determine if multiple baseline HVAC system types from
>> Table G3.1.1A are appropriate. However, exception a to
>> G3.1.1 only applies if the separate area is greater than
>> 20,000 ft2 and that area must qualify for a different
>> baseline HVAC system type based on a //different building
>> type, heating source, number of floors, or residential vs
>> non-residential classification//. For example, if the
>> office area and the warehouse area of a building are both
>> greater than 20,000 ft2 and the office uses electric heat
>> while the warehouse uses gas heat, then two separate
>> baseline systems types could be utilized. If exception b
>> to G3.1.1 applies to portions of the areas served by one
>> of the baseline HVAC systems, then separate single-zone
>> systems conforming with the requirements of System 3 or
>> System 4 (depending on building heating source) can be
>> utilized. /
>>
>> Hope this helps you!!
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Chris Jones via Bldg-sim
>> <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>> My question is about the retail spaces on the main
>> floor. I agree, the residential tower has System 1
>> but I am still not entirely sure about the retail
>> spaces. They make up more than 20,000 ft2 so
>> Exception G3.1.1.(a) applies but I am not sure if I
>> use the area/number of floors of the entire building
>> when selecting the retail baseline system. Or do I
>> use the area/number of floors of the retail spaces
>> when selecting the retail baseline System?
>>
>> **
>>
>> <image001.jpg>
>> <http://www.rwdi.com/assets/logos/RWDI-logo.gif>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Christopher Jones, **P.Eng. *| Senior Energy Analyst
>> *RWDI*
>> 901 King Street West, Suite 400, Toronto, ON M5V 3H5
>> Canada
>> Tel: (519) 823-1311 ext 2052 <tel:%28519%29%20823-1311>
>> rwdi.com <http://www.rwdi.com/>
>>
>> *From:*Jim Dirkes
>> [mailto:jim at buildingperformanceteam.com
>> <mailto:jim at buildingperformanceteam.com>]
>> *Sent:* Friday, February 17, 2017 7:54 AM
>> *To:* Chris Jones
>> *Cc:* Anderson Letti; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
>>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Baseline HVAC system type
>> question
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>> Residential is ALWAYS System 1 or 2, never one of the
>> others.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 7:39 AM, Chris Jones via
>> Bldg-sim <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you Anderson,
>>
>> In this case, the retail is more than 20,000 ft^2 so
>> I need to select a different baseline system.
>>
>> My follow-up question: the building is more than 5
>> floors (majority is residential) but the retail only
>> occupies the ground floor. Would I select System 7,
>> VAV reheat as the building is more than 5 floors.
>>
>> Or would I select System 3 for the retail because the
>> that space only occupies 1 floor?
>>
>> **
>>
>> <image001.jpg>
>> <http://www.rwdi.com/assets/logos/RWDI-logo.gif>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Christopher Jones, **P.Eng. *| Senior Energy Analyst
>> *RWDI*
>> 901 King Street West, Suite 400, Toronto, ON M5V 3H5
>> Canada
>> Tel: (519) 823-1311 ext 2052 <tel:%28519%29%20823-1311>
>> rwdi.com <http://www.rwdi.com/>
>>
>> *From:*Anderson Letti
>> [mailto:anderson.a.letti at gmail.com
>> <mailto:anderson.a.letti at gmail.com>]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:23 PM
>> *To:* Chris Jones
>> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Baseline HVAC system type
>> question
>>
>> I believe that if the retail gross floor area is less
>> than 1900 m2 you can use system 1, otherwise you can
>> use exception a of section G3.1.1.
>>
>> 2017-02-16 17:12 GMT-02:00 Chris Jones via Bldg-sim
>> <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>>:
>>
>> Standard 90.1-2007. The building is a high rise
>> residential with the ground floor mainly retail.
>> 90.1-2007 says to use the predominant condition to
>> select the baseline system. In this case residential
>> is the predominant condition therefore I am assuming
>> the retail spaces would also have System 1, PTAC?
>> Heating is fossil fuel.
>>
>> **
>>
>> <image001.jpg>
>> <http://www.rwdi.com/assets/logos/RWDI-logo.gif>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Christopher Jones, **P.Eng. *| Senior Energy Analyst
>> *RWDI*
>> 901 King Street West, Suite 400, Toronto, ON M5V 3H5
>> Canada
>> Tel: (519) 823-1311 ext 2052 <tel:%28519%29%20823-1311>
>> rwdi.com <http://www.rwdi.com/>
>>
>> *From:*Bldg-sim
>> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] *On
>> Behalf Of *Jim Dirkes via Bldg-sim
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 15, 2017 6:42 PM
>> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
>> *Subject:* [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE Building Performance
>> Analysis conference needs knowledgeable presenters
>>
>> What have you learned in the past few years that
>> others will benefit from hearing about? Sample topics
>> of interest might be:
>>
>> * Making the business case for modeling
>> * Modeling challenging or unusual projects or systems
>> * Post-occupancy modeling tips, tricks and lessons
>> learned
>> * Emerging trends
>>
>> This conference has been an amazing event to learn,
>> share and network. It's very much worth attending ...
>> and of you present a topic part or all of your
>> registration fee is waived (I should know that
>> detail, but forgot and can't look it up right now.)
>>
>> Registration is available NOW. Presentations are
>> being solicited NOW. Find more information HERE
>> <https://www.ashrae.org/membership--conferences/conferences/ashrae-conferences/2017-ashrae-building-performance-analysis-conference>-
>> or feel free to call me and discuss a possible topic
>> or other concern.
>>
>> --
>>
>> James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
>> CEO/President
>> The Building Performance Team Inc.
>> 1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504
>>
>> Direct: 616.450.8653 <tel:%28616%29%20450-8653>
>> jim at buildingperformanceteam.com
>> <mailto:jim at buildingperformanceteam.com>
>>
>> Website <http://buildingperformanceteam.com>l
>> LinkedIn
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413> |
>> May 2016 ASHRAE Journal article on energy modeling
>> <http://buildingperformanceteam.com/bpt-insights-blog/item/73-modeled-performance-isn-t-actual-performance>
>>
>> Choice. It is perhaps the most distinct and
>> dignifying characteristic of humans. Consciously and
>> with understanding, we choose what is true,
>> honorable, right, pure, lovely … or otherwise. Like
>> the rest of humanity, my choices don’t always align
>> with true, honorable, right, pure, and lovely, but I
>> know those are what I set my sights upon. I choose them.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *RWDI - A Platinum Member of Canada's 50 Best Managed
>> Companies*
>> This communication is intended for the sole use of
>> the party to whom it was addressed and may contain
>> information that is privileged and/or confidential.
>> Any other distribution, copying or disclosure is
>> strictly prohibited. If you received this email in
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>> this email and delete the message without retaining
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>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Att.,
>>
>> *Eng. Anderson Letti*
>>
>> ASHRAE BEMP Certified - Building Energy Modeling
>> Professional
>>
>> Rua 3700, 249. CEP 88330-203
>>
>> Bal. Camboriú - SC - Brasil
>> Tell: +55 47 99632 3912 <tel:+55%2047%2099632-3912>
>>
>> Skype: anderson.letti
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *RWDI - A Platinum Member of Canada's 50 Best Managed
>> Companies*
>> This communication is intended for the sole use of
>> the party to whom it was addressed and may contain
>> information that is privileged and/or confidential.
>> Any other distribution, copying or disclosure is
>> strictly prohibited. If you received this email in
>> error, please notify us immediately by replying to
>> this email and delete the message without retaining
>> any hard or electronic copies of same. Outgoing
>> emails are scanned for viruses, but no warranty is
>> made to their absence in this email or attachments.
>> If you require any information supplied by RWDI in a
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>> the sender of the email, email solutions at rwdi.com
>> <mailto:solutions at rwdi.com> or call +1.519.823.1311
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>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
>> CEO/President
>> The Building Performance Team Inc.
>> 1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504
>>
>> Direct: 616.450.8653 <tel:%28616%29%20450-8653>
>> jim at buildingperformanceteam.com
>> <mailto:jim at buildingperformanceteam.com>
>>
>> Website <http://buildingperformanceteam.com>l
>> LinkedIn
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413> |
>> May 2016 ASHRAE Journal article on energy modeling
>> <http://buildingperformanceteam.com/bpt-insights-blog/item/73-modeled-performance-isn-t-actual-performance>
>>
>> Choice. It is perhaps the most distinct and
>> dignifying characteristic of humans. Consciously and
>> with understanding, we choose what is true,
>> honorable, right, pure, lovely … or otherwise. Like
>> the rest of humanity, my choices don’t always align
>> with true, honorable, right, pure, and lovely, but I
>> know those are what I set my sights upon. I choose them.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *RWDI - A Platinum Member of Canada's 50 Best Managed
>> Companies*
>> This communication is intended for the sole use of
>> the party to whom it was addressed and may contain
>> information that is privileged and/or confidential.
>> Any other distribution, copying or disclosure is
>> strictly prohibited. If you received this email in
>> error, please notify us immediately by replying to
>> this email and delete the message without retaining
>> any hard or electronic copies of same. Outgoing
>> emails are scanned for viruses, but no warranty is
>> made to their absence in this email or attachments.
>> If you require any information supplied by RWDI in a
>> different format to facilitate accessibility, contact
>> the sender of the email, email solutions at rwdi.com
>> <mailto:solutions at rwdi.com> or call +1.519.823.1311
>> <tel:%28519%29%20823-1311>.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> //
>>
>> Javed Iqbal, LEED AP, CEA
>> Sr. Energy Analyst
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email
>> Security.cloud service.
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> *RWDI - A Platinum Member of Canada's 50 Best Managed
>> Companies*
>> This communication is intended for the sole use of the
>> party to whom it was addressed and may contain
>> information that is privileged and/or confidential. Any
>> other distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly
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--
Jason Glazer, P.E., BEMP, GARD Analytics, 90.1 ECB chair, 209 chair
Admin for onebuilding.org building performance mailing lists
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