[Bldg-sim] Baseline HVAC system type question
Julien MARREC via Bldg-sim
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Tue Feb 21 09:37:17 PST 2017
Chris,
There's a PNNL report that came out in 2016 that aims to fill this kind of gaps (though I feel there still are gaps, and sometimes I don't 100% agree with their interpretation). The openstudio-standards project which I contribute to that aims to automate baseline creation is based on this report
The title is ASHRAE 90.1-2010 Performance Rating Method Reference Manual.
The report is intended to be a reference manual for the Appendix G Performance Rating Method (PRM) of ASHRAE Standard 90.1-2010, but most holds true for 2007.
Best,
Julien
Envoyé de mon iPhone
> Le 21 févr. 2017 à 15:31, Chris Jones via Bldg-sim <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org> a écrit :
>
> Thank you Nick,
> The responses received point to using a different baseline system and I agree with those interpretations. In my specific case, high rise residential with retail on the main floor, I am going to use System 1, PTAC for the residential and System 3, PSZ for the retail.
>
> However, it seems to me that I could also assign System 5 to the retail spaces. The non-denominate space (retail) is larger than 20,000 ft2 and the building is large enough to meet the threshold for System 5.
>
> The standard doesn’t explicitly indicate that the non-denominate spaces are to be on System 3 or 4 therefore, I believe I could select System 5 although it would not be an apples-to-apples comparison. The proposed design has packaged single zone systems serving the retail spaces making tenant sub-metering simpler.
>
>
> <image001.jpg>
> Christopher Jones, P.Eng. | Senior Energy Analyst
> RWDI
> 901 King Street West, Suite 400, Toronto, ON M5V 3H5 Canada
> Tel: (519) 823-1311 ext 2052
> rwdi.com
>
>
> From: Nicholas Caton [mailto:Nicholas.Caton at schneider-electric.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 10:47 AM
> To: Javed Iqbal; Chris Jones
> Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Baseline HVAC system type question
>
> Right.
>
> My framework is typically to piece this out in two steps:
> 1. Ignoring the possibility of G31.1.1A exceptions to start, determine the baseline system type for the whole building using the other prescriptions in play. In this case it would have to be system type 1 / 2 due to the predominantly residential situation.
> 2. Consider whether ANY singular or combined areas of the facility meet the 2 consistent requirements of G3.1.1A:
> a. Total sum area > 20,000ft2 (aside: I’ve deliberately put forward alternative baseline systems where I haven’t met this threshold, but it totally makes sense to have a distinct/different baseline system)
> b. “nonpredominant conditions” - this isn’t a glossary term and is subject to interpretation. My successful interpretations (as measured by non-rejected LEED submissions) have included:
> i. non-residential vs. residential occupancies (this is pretty clear cut as a listed example in the standard)
> ii. very different load profiles (i.e. large greenhouse attached to a school, or where in the proposed design you’re excluding cooling for a warehouse)
> iii. very different occupancy/usage profiles (i.e. a chunk of the facility requires 24/7 ventilation or process loads resulting in very different system operations)
>
> The interpretation below would look to agree and clash with my usual interpretation depending on circumstance. At the end of the day I feel the presence of non-predominant conditions should not substantially help nor hinder the baseline case in an artificial manner relative to the proposed case. So long as you’re holding to that “spirit” of the standard, you should be fine specifying alternative baseline systems.
>
> ~Nick
>
> <image002.png>
> Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP
> Senior Energy Engineer
> Regional Energy Engineering Manager
> Energy and Sustainability Services
> Schneider Electric
> D 913.564.6361
> M 785.410.3317
> F 913.564.6380
> E nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com
> 15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
> Suite 204
> Lenexa, KS 66219
> United States
> <image003.png>
>
>
> From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Javed Iqbal via Bldg-sim
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 7:47 AM
> To: Chris Jones <Christopher.Jones at rwdi.com>
> Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Baseline HVAC system type question
>
> Dear Chris,
>
> The ASHRAE INTERPRETATION IC 90.1-2007 might help you. It states
>
> Exception a to G3.1.1 should be utilized first to determine if multiple baseline HVAC system types from Table G3.1.1A are appropriate. However, exception a to G3.1.1 only applies if the separate area is greater than 20,000 ft2 and that area must qualify for a different baseline HVAC system type based on a different building type, heating source, number of floors, or residential vs non-residential classification. For example, if the office area and the warehouse area of a building are both greater than 20,000 ft2 and the office uses electric heat while the warehouse uses gas heat, then two separate baseline systems types could be utilized. If exception b to G3.1.1 applies to portions of the areas served by one of the baseline HVAC systems, then separate single-zone systems conforming with the requirements of System 3 or System 4 (depending on building heating source) can be utilized.
>
> Hope this helps you!!
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Chris Jones via Bldg-sim <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org> wrote:
> Jim,
> My question is about the retail spaces on the main floor. I agree, the residential tower has System 1 but I am still not entirely sure about the retail spaces. They make up more than 20,000 ft2 so Exception G3.1.1.(a) applies but I am not sure if I use the area/number of floors of the entire building when selecting the retail baseline system. Or do I use the area/number of floors of the retail spaces when selecting the retail baseline System?
>
>
>
> <image001.jpg>
> Christopher Jones, P.Eng. | Senior Energy Analyst
> RWDI
> 901 King Street West, Suite 400, Toronto, ON M5V 3H5 Canada
> Tel: (519) 823-1311 ext 2052
> rwdi.com
>
>
> From: Jim Dirkes [mailto:jim at buildingperformanceteam.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 7:54 AM
> To: Chris Jones
> Cc: Anderson Letti; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Baseline HVAC system type question
>
> Chris,
> Residential is ALWAYS System 1 or 2, never one of the others.
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 7:39 AM, Chris Jones via Bldg-sim <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org> wrote:
> Thank you Anderson,
> In this case, the retail is more than 20,000 ft2 so I need to select a different baseline system.
>
> My follow-up question: the building is more than 5 floors (majority is residential) but the retail only occupies the ground floor. Would I select System 7, VAV reheat as the building is more than 5 floors.
>
> Or would I select System 3 for the retail because the that space only occupies 1 floor?
>
>
>
> <image001.jpg>
> Christopher Jones, P.Eng. | Senior Energy Analyst
> RWDI
> 901 King Street West, Suite 400, Toronto, ON M5V 3H5 Canada
> Tel: (519) 823-1311 ext 2052
> rwdi.com
>
>
> From: Anderson Letti [mailto:anderson.a.letti at gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:23 PM
> To: Chris Jones
> Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Baseline HVAC system type question
>
> I believe that if the retail gross floor area is less than 1900 m2 you can use system 1, otherwise you can use exception a of section G3.1.1.
>
> 2017-02-16 17:12 GMT-02:00 Chris Jones via Bldg-sim <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>:
> Standard 90.1-2007. The building is a high rise residential with the ground floor mainly retail. 90.1-2007 says to use the predominant condition to select the baseline system. In this case residential is the predominant condition therefore I am assuming the retail spaces would also have System 1, PTAC? Heating is fossil fuel.
>
>
>
> <image001.jpg>
> Christopher Jones, P.Eng. | Senior Energy Analyst
> RWDI
> 901 King Street West, Suite 400, Toronto, ON M5V 3H5 Canada
> Tel: (519) 823-1311 ext 2052
> rwdi.com
>
>
> From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Jim Dirkes via Bldg-sim
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 6:42 PM
> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE Building Performance Analysis conference needs knowledgeable presenters
>
> What have you learned in the past few years that others will benefit from hearing about? Sample topics of interest might be:
> Making the business case for modeling
> Modeling challenging or unusual projects or systems
> Post-occupancy modeling tips, tricks and lessons learned
> Emerging trends
> This conference has been an amazing event to learn, share and network. It's very much worth attending ... and of you present a topic part or all of your registration fee is waived (I should know that detail, but forgot and can't look it up right now.)
>
> Registration is available NOW. Presentations are being solicited NOW. Find more information HERE - or feel free to call me and discuss a possible topic or other concern.
>
>
> --
> James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
> CEO/President
> The Building Performance Team Inc.
> 1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504
>
> Direct: 616.450.8653
> jim at buildingperformanceteam.com
>
> Website l LinkedIn | May 2016 ASHRAE Journal article on energy modeling
> Choice. It is perhaps the most distinct and dignifying characteristic of humans. Consciously and with understanding, we choose what is true, honorable, right, pure, lovely … or otherwise. Like the rest of humanity, my choices don’t always align with true, honorable, right, pure, and lovely, but I know those are what I set my sights upon. I choose them.
>
> RWDI - A Platinum Member of Canada's 50 Best Managed Companies
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>
> --
> Att.,
> Eng. Anderson Letti
>
> ASHRAE BEMP Certified - Building Energy Modeling Professional
>
> Rua 3700, 249. CEP 88330-203
>
> Bal. Camboriú - SC - Brasil
> Tell: +55 47 99632 3912
>
> Skype: anderson.letti
> RWDI - A Platinum Member of Canada's 50 Best Managed Companies
> This communication is intended for the sole use of the party to whom it was addressed and may contain information that is privileged and/or confidential. Any other distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this email and delete the message without retaining any hard or electronic copies of same. Outgoing emails are scanned for viruses, but no warranty is made to their absence in this email or attachments. If you require any information supplied by RWDI in a different format to facilitate accessibility, contact the sender of the email, email solutions at rwdi.com or call +1.519.823.1311.
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>
>
> --
> James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
> CEO/President
> The Building Performance Team Inc.
> 1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504
>
> Direct: 616.450.8653
> jim at buildingperformanceteam.com
>
> Website l LinkedIn | May 2016 ASHRAE Journal article on energy modeling
> Choice. It is perhaps the most distinct and dignifying characteristic of humans. Consciously and with understanding, we choose what is true, honorable, right, pure, lovely … or otherwise. Like the rest of humanity, my choices don’t always align with true, honorable, right, pure, and lovely, but I know those are what I set my sights upon. I choose them.
>
> RWDI - A Platinum Member of Canada's 50 Best Managed Companies
> This communication is intended for the sole use of the party to whom it was addressed and may contain information that is privileged and/or confidential. Any other distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this email and delete the message without retaining any hard or electronic copies of same. Outgoing emails are scanned for viruses, but no warranty is made to their absence in this email or attachments. If you require any information supplied by RWDI in a different format to facilitate accessibility, contact the sender of the email, email solutions at rwdi.com or call +1.519.823.1311.
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> --
>
> Javed Iqbal, LEED AP, CEA
> Sr. Energy Analyst
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
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> RWDI - A Platinum Member of Canada's 50 Best Managed Companies
> This communication is intended for the sole use of the party to whom it was addressed and may contain information that is privileged and/or confidential. Any other distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this email and delete the message without retaining any hard or electronic copies of same. Outgoing emails are scanned for viruses, but no warranty is made to their absence in this email or attachments. If you require any information supplied by RWDI in a different format to facilitate accessibility, contact the sender of the email, email solutions at rwdi.com or call +1.519.823.1311.
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