[Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on dates).

[Jim Dirkes]

Joe,
If people are concerned about modeling for LEED baselines, there's no need
to understand bridging's impact because the 90.1 tables already account for
the bridging.
If, however, we want to prepare models that are true to the construction
reality, we need to have an understanding of how heat transfers in real
constructions.
Up until a few short years ago, that understanding had completely escaped
me.  We'll just say that for 35 of 40 years of continuous involvement in
commercial building heating and cooling systems, I didn't know that my
U-values calculations were routinely off by 15-20%.
I bet I'm not alone!

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Joe Huang <yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
wrote:

> A final comment on the original question of modeling thermal bridges in
> e-QUEST (or any other whole-building energy simulation program).   ASHRAE
> TC 4.7 had sponsored work on this topic 14 years ago (2000-2001),
> "MODELING TWO- AND THREE- DIMENSIONAL HEAT TRANSFER THROUGH COMPOSITE WALL
> AND ROOF ASSEMBLIES IN TRANSIENT ENERGY SIMULATION PROGRAMS (1145-TRP)".
> The work was done by Enermodal in association with Oak  Ridge National
> Laboratory and the Polish Academy of Sciences.  The solution was pretty
> much what I had mentioned previously, i.e., use a 2-D conduction program
> (HEATING-7) to calculate response factors, although the project went one
> step further to derive a fictitious 3-layer 1-D wall section with  the same
> dynamic thermal properties.  For more information, please see the full
> report available from ORNL at
> <http://web.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/research/detailed_papers/whole_bldg/>
> http://web.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/research/detailed_papers/whole_bldg/ .
>
> Although the project was successful technically, it seemed to have been
> ignored by the simulation community, and even in many ways  by TC 4.7
> itself!  To me,the lesson is that no matter how good is the widget, there
> always has to be a tech transfer and dissemination effort lest the widget
> just sits on the shelf.  As a reaction to this thread,  I am currently
> bringing up the subject within TC4.7 whether we need to do a small
> follow-on project to do a guideline on modeling 2-D/3-D heat transfer along
> with a computer tool that makes it no more difficult (well... maybe a
> little more) to do than standard 1-D heat transfer.
>
> If  there's anyone on this bulletin board who thinks such a project would
> be useful, please let me know as I make my case to TC 4.7.
>
> Joe
> (currently chair of TC 4.7)
>
> Joe Huang
> White Box Technologies, Inc.
> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
> Moraga CA 94556yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.comhttp://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
> (o) (925)388-0265
> (c) (510)928-2683
> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>
> On 2/1/2016 6:35 AM, Jones, Christopher wrote:
>
> Christian,
>
> I agree that it is important for designers to understand the effects of
> thermal bridging at transitions in typical construction details. But
> convincing developers to spend the extra time and construction cost to
> reduce these thermal bridges is difficult considering the payback periods
> range from 30-40 years depending on the project and location.
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0]
>
> *Christopher Jones,*P.Eng.
> Senior Engineer
>
>
>
> *WSP Canada Inc.*
>
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
> T +1 416-644-4226
>
> F +1 416-487-9766
>
> C +1 416-697-0056
>
>
>
> www.wspgroup.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Christian Cianfrone [mailto:CCianfrone at morrisonhershfield.com
> <CCianfrone at morrisonhershfield.com>]
> *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 4:52 PM
> *To:* Jones, Christopher; Joe Huang; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* RE: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2
> (minor correction on dates).
>
>
>
> Chris, Joe,
>
>
>
> Refer to ASHRAE 1365-RP for detailed methodology on the modeling.  The
> same methodology was used in the BETB Guide.  Sensitivity of transient
> analysis for the thermal modeling was addressed in 1365-RP.  In terms of
> thermal mass impacts on energy modeling, this is dealt with in Appendix C
> of the report.  Analysis was done using EnergyPlus’ Finite Difference
> method for conduction.
>
>
>
> Chris – the point of derating the reference building in the BC Hydro
> incentive is to encourage design teams to understand the actual performance
> of their envelope (and buildings).  If you just force people to include all
> thermal bridging when the codes were clearly developed to ignore most of
> this thermal bridging, then nobody will ever account for the full effects
> of thermal bridging.
>
>
>
> By not being realistic, designers end up adding (and paying) for more
> insulation with no real added value.  And the relative savings are not the
> same – The differences in energy at high R-values are not the same
> differences in energy at low R-values.
>
>
>
> Paperwork is quite straightforward too.  It requires a few take-offs and
> looking up U-values/Psi Values, which an energy modeler is mostly already
> doing.  We’ll be releasing some how-to videos in the near future to help
> folks along.  I’ll post to this group when available.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> *Christian Cianfrone, M.A.Sc <http://M.A.Sc>., P.Eng., LEED*®* AP BD+C*
>
> Principal, Building Energy Practice Lead
>
> ccianfrone at morrisonhershfield.com <email at morrisonhershfield.com>
>
>
>
> [image: Description: Description: Description: Description: Description:
> logo4email4] <http://www.morrisonhershfield.com/Pages/default.aspx>
>
>
>
> Suite 310, 4321 Still Creek Drive  |  Burnaby, BC  V5C 6S7
> Dir: 604 454 2006  |  Cell: 604 376 1315  |  Fax: 604 454 0403
>
> *morrisonhershfield.com/sustainability
> <http://morrisonhershfield.com/sustainability>*
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> <bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] *On Behalf Of *Jones,
> Christopher
> *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 10:15 AM
> *To:* Joe Huang <yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>;
> bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2
> (minor correction on dates).
>
>
>
> Joe,
>
> I admit I haven’t read all the appendices. I use mainly appendix B which
> contains the steady-state U-values of dozens of constructions. Appendix C
> may provide some insights as to whether or not dynamic characteristics of
> the constructions were examined in their energy modeling.
>
>
>
> From this work, BC Hydro has decided that all thermal bridging in
> buildings are to be accounted for when performing modeling for BC Hydro
> incentives. But BC Hydro also now includes blanket factors for de-rating
> the baseline case energy model to account for typical thermal bridging not
> accounted for in 90.1. It is a bit baffling to me as one has to go through
> a lot of work, fill in a bunch of forms to come up with almost no
> significant difference in relative results:
>
>
>
> The same web page, just below “Resources” includes this Accounting for
> Thermal Bridging at Interface Details along with the spreadsheets:
>
>
> <https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html#thermal>
> https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html#thermal
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0]
>
> *Christopher Jones,*P.Eng.
> Senior Engineer
>
>
>
> *WSP Canada Inc.*
>
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
> T +1 416-644-4226
>
> F +1 416-487-9766
>
> C +1 416-697-0056
>
>
>
> www.wspgroup.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Joe Huang [mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
> <yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>]
> *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 11:46 AM
> *To:* Jones, Christopher; <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
> bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2
> (minor correction on dates).
>
>
>
> Christopher,
>
> I took a brief scroll through the link that you provided, and yes, there's
> a lot of information there. I haven't yet found a technical description of
> the methodology, but I did get to the tables with pretty colored pictures
> of wall sections and their computed U-values. I hope there's more
> information on the dynamic characteristics of these wall sections, i.e.,
> thermal mass, diffusivity, etc., since those would be needed to model them
> correctly in a simulation program.
>
> In terms of comparing the methodologies, as you've suggested, one place to
> start would be simply comparing the steady-state U-values derived for the
> same wall constructions. I've done some digging on my end and found an old
> 1997 User News newsletter with a brief description of the 2-D response
> factor work I did with Fred Winkelmann and Vladimir Bazjanac and a table
> listing the R-values for the 76 steel-frame wall sections modeled.  Since
> the whole newsletter is only 657K, I've attached it with this e-mail.  The
> newsletter is interesting in other ways, as well, including the
> announcement of the 5th IBPSA conference to be held in the Czech Republic
> :-) .
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Huang
>
> White Box Technologies, Inc.
>
> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
>
> Moraga CA 94556
>
> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
>
> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
>
> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
>
> (o) (925)388-0265
>
> (c) (510)928-2683
>
> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>
> On 1/29/2016 5:18 AM, Jones, Christopher wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> It would be very interesting to compare the methodologies in your paper
> with the results of the Morrison Herschfield research. BC Hydro published
> that detailed research.
>
>
>
>
> <https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html?WT.mc_id=rd_thermalguide#thermal>
> https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html?WT.mc_id=rd_thermalguide#thermal
>
>
>
> [image: cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0]
>
> *Christopher Jones,*P.Eng.
> Senior Engineer
>
>
>
> *WSP Canada Inc.*
>
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
> T +1 416-644-4226
>
> F +1 416-487-9766
>
> C +1 416-697-0056
>
>
>
> www.wspgroup.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> <bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] *On Behalf Of *Joe Huang
> *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 5:44 AM
> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2
> (minor correction on dates).
>
>
>
> The work I did for the CEC was done in 1996 (as indicated in the report
> title), not 2000-2002, which was a follow-on effort to do 2-D foundation
> heat flows.
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Huang
>
> White Box Technologies, Inc.
>
> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
>
> Moraga CA 94556
>
> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
>
> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
>
> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
>
> (o) (925)388-0265
>
> (c) (510)928-2683
>
> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>
> On 1/29/2016 2:41 AM, Joe Huang wrote:
>
> I actually helped to develop a method to model thermal bridges in DOE-2
> back in 1986 that has never been widely disseminated, although I still find
> it the most practical way to model 2-D heat flows in whole-building
> simulations.
>
> This method uses a two-dimensional finite-element program (WALFERFN) that
> calculates one-dimensional equivalent response factors which are written
> directly into the DOE-2 layers library (BDLLIB.DAT), which can then be
> called by DOE-2 just like any other response factor in the library.
>
> I've always used this technique in my residential modeling, with the added
> benefit of not needing to input duplicate sets of wall layers for the stud
> and non-stud portions, which measurably simplifies the  models and makes
> them easier to read.  The last time I did significant work on this subject
> was in 2000-2002, when I created for the California Energy Commission a
> library of over 100 wall layers with metal framing and thus considerable
> thermal bridging.  I compared the wall assembly U-values to that calculated
> by ORNL's Heating-7 program, and they were right on.  Unfortunately, a few
> years after the project was completed, the Commission decided to move to
> EnergyPlus as their reference program, and so this work was effectively
> abandoned.
>
> For more information on this technique, i.e., creating 2-D response
> factors, please see this report:
> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com/PAPERS/96_12_YJH_2Drespfacs_CEC_rpt.pdf
>
> If there's anyone who's still running DOE-2 in batch, rather than just the
> eQUEST interface, this procedure should be quite understandable.  Just
> e-mail me and I'll be happy to give you a copy of the WALFERFN program and
> some sample input files.
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Huang
>
> White Box Technologies, Inc.
>
> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
>
> Moraga CA 94556
>
> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
>
> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
>
> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
>
> (o) (925)388-0265
>
> (c) (510)928-2683
>
> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>
> On 1/28/2016 1:22 PM, Jim Dirkes wrote:
>
> There is also a landmark study by Morrison Hershfield in Canada which I
> don't have access to at the moment that should provide guidance.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Marcus Sheffer <sheffer at sevengroup.com>
> wrote:
>
> Follow the guidance in ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix A to determine the whole
> assembly values.
>
> Marcus Sheffer
> 7group
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jones, Christopher [mailto: <Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com>
> Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 8:30 AM
> To: Luis Peréz-Lombard; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2
>
> Hello Sir,
> eQuest does not have the capability to directly model thermal bridges. The
> typical methodology is to calculate the effective U-value of the
> insulation/thermal bridge layer when building your layers for the
> construction.  BC Hydro has published significant research on building
> envelope thermal bridging. See the lower portion of the webpage:
>
> https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html#thermal
>
>
>
>
> Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
> Senior Engineer
>
> WSP Canada Inc.
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
> T +1 416-644-4226
> F +1 416-487-9766
> C +1 416-697-0056
>
> www.wspgroup.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf
> Of Luis Peréz-Lombard
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 4:08 AM
> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2
>
> Dear building simulation colleagues,
> I would very much appreciate any insights or work around to simulate
> envelope thermal bridges in e-quest.
> Sincerely,
> LPL
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Luis Pérez-Lombard
> Dr. Ingeniero Industrial
> Profesor Contratado Doctor
> Departamento de Ingeniería Energética
> Escuela Superior de Ingenieros
> Universidad de Sevilla
> Camino de los Descubrimientos s/n
> 41092 SEVILLA
> Tfno.:      95.448.72.56
> Fax:         95.446.31.53
> e-mail:    lpl at us.es
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
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> --
>
> James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
> CEO/President
> The Building Performance Team Inc.
> 1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504
>
> Direct: 616.450.8653
> <jim at buildingperformanceteam.com>jim at buildingperformanceteam.com
>
> Website <http://buildingperformanceteamcom>l  LinkedIn
> <https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413>
>
> Fail faster!
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-- 

James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
CEO/President
The Building Performance Team Inc.
1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504

Direct: 616.450.8653
jim at buildingperformanceteam.com

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