[Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on dates).
Joe Huang
yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
Wed Feb 3 05:46:19 PST 2016
A final comment on the original question of modeling thermal bridges in e-QUEST (or any
other whole-building energy simulation program). ASHRAE TC 4.7 had sponsored work on
this topic 14 years ago (2000-2001), "MODELING TWO- AND THREE- DIMENSIONAL HEAT TRANSFER
THROUGH COMPOSITE WALL AND ROOF ASSEMBLIES IN TRANSIENT ENERGY SIMULATION PROGRAMS
(1145-TRP)". The work was done by Enermodal in association with Oak Ridge National
Laboratory and the Polish Academy of Sciences. The solution was pretty much what I had
mentioned previously, i.e., use a 2-D conduction program (HEATING-7) to calculate response
factors, although the project went one step further to derive a fictitious 3-layer 1-D
wall section with the same dynamic thermal properties. For more information, please see
the full report available from ORNL
athttp://web.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/research/detailed_papers/whole_bldg/ .
Although the project was successful technically, it seemed to have been ignored by the
simulation community, and even in many ways by TC 4.7 itself! To me,the lesson is that no
matter how good is the widget, there always has to be a tech transfer and dissemination
effort lest the widget just sits on the shelf. As a reaction to this thread, I am
currently bringing up the subject within TC4.7 whether we need to do a small follow-on
project to do a guideline on modeling 2-D/3-D heat transfer along with a computer tool
that makes it no more difficult (well... maybe a little more) to do than standard 1-D heat
transfer.
If there's anyone on this bulletin board who thinks such a project would be useful,
please let me know as I make my case to TC 4.7.
Joe
(currently chair of TC 4.7)
Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
Moraga CA 94556
yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
On 2/1/2016 6:35 AM, Jones, Christopher wrote:
>
> Christian,
>
> I agree that it is important for designers to understand the effects of thermal bridging
> at transitions in typical construction details. But convincing developers to spend the
> extra time and construction cost to reduce these thermal bridges is difficult
> considering the payback periods range from 30-40 years depending on the project and
> location.
>
> cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0**
>
> *Christopher Jones,***P.Eng./
> /Senior Engineer**
>
> **
>
> *WSP Canada Inc.*
>
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
> T +1 416-644-4226
>
> F +1 416-487-9766
>
> C +1 416-697-0056
>
> www.wspgroup.com <http://www.wspgroup.com/> //
>
> *From:*Christian Cianfrone [mailto:CCianfrone at morrisonhershfield.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 4:52 PM
> *To:* Jones, Christopher; Joe Huang; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* RE: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction
> on dates).
>
> Chris, Joe,
>
> Refer to ASHRAE 1365-RP for detailed methodology on the modeling. The same methodology
> was used in the BETB Guide. Sensitivity of transient analysis for the thermal modeling
> was addressed in 1365-RP. In terms of thermal mass impacts on energy modeling, this is
> dealt with in Appendix C of the report. Analysis was done using EnergyPlus’ Finite
> Difference method for conduction.
>
> Chris – the point of derating the reference building in the BC Hydro incentive is to
> encourage design teams to understand the actual performance of their envelope (and
> buildings). If you just force people to include all thermal bridging when the codes were
> clearly developed to ignore most of this thermal bridging, then nobody will ever account
> for the full effects of thermal bridging.
>
> By not being realistic, designers end up adding (and paying) for more insulation with no
> real added value. And the relative savings are not the same – The differences in energy
> at high R-values are not the same differences in energy at low R-values.
>
> Paperwork is quite straightforward too. It requires a few take-offs and looking up
> U-values/Psi Values, which an energy modeler is mostly already doing. We’ll be
> releasing some how-to videos in the near future to help folks along. I’ll post to this
> group when available.
>
> Cheers,
>
> *Christian Cianfrone, M.A.Sc., P.Eng., LEED*^® *AP BD+C*
>
> Principal, Building Energy Practice Lead
>
> ccianfrone at morrisonhershfield.com <mailto:email at morrisonhershfield.com>
>
> Description: Description: Description: Description: Description: logo4email4
> <http://www.morrisonhershfield.com/Pages/default.aspx>
>
> Suite 310, 4321 Still Creek Drive | Burnaby, BC V5C 6S7
> Dir: 604 454 2006 | Cell: 604 376 1315 | Fax: 604 454 0403
>
> _morrisonhershfield.com/sustainability___
>
> *From:*Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Jones,
> Christopher
> *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 10:15 AM
> *To:* Joe Huang <yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
> <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>>; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction
> on dates).
>
> Joe,
>
> I admit I haven’t read all the appendices. I use mainly appendix B which contains the
> steady-state U-values of dozens of constructions. Appendix C may provide some insights
> as to whether or not dynamic characteristics of the constructions were examined in their
> energy modeling.
>
> From this work, BC Hydro has decided that all thermal bridging in buildings are to be
> accounted for when performing modeling for BC Hydro incentives. But BC Hydro also now
> includes blanket factors for de-rating the baseline case energy model to account for
> typical thermal bridging not accounted for in 90.1. It is a bit baffling to me as one
> has to go through a lot of work, fill in a bunch of forms to come up with almost no
> significant difference in relative results:
>
> The same web page, just below “Resources” includes this Accounting for Thermal Bridging
> at Interface Details along with the spreadsheets:
>
> https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html#thermal
>
> cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0**
>
> *Christopher Jones,***P.Eng./
> /Senior Engineer**
>
> **
>
> *WSP Canada Inc.*
>
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
> T +1 416-644-4226
>
> F +1 416-487-9766
>
> C +1 416-697-0056
>
> www.wspgroup.com <http://www.wspgroup.com/> //
>
> *From:*Joe Huang [mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 11:46 AM
> *To:* Jones, Christopher; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction
> on dates).
>
> Christopher,
>
> I took a brief scroll through the link that you provided, and yes, there's a lot of
> information there. I haven't yet found a technical description of the methodology, but I
> did get to the tables with pretty colored pictures of wall sections and their computed
> U-values. I hope there's more information on the dynamic characteristics of these wall
> sections, i.e., thermal mass, diffusivity, etc., since those would be needed to model
> them correctly in a simulation program.
>
> In terms of comparing the methodologies, as you've suggested, one place to start would
> be simply comparing the steady-state U-values derived for the same wall constructions.
> I've done some digging on my end and found an old 1997 User News newsletter with a brief
> description of the 2-D response factor work I did with Fred Winkelmann and Vladimir
> Bazjanac and a table listing the R-values for the 76 steel-frame wall sections modeled.
> Since the whole newsletter is only 657K, I've attached it with this e-mail. The
> newsletter is interesting in other ways, as well, including the announcement of the 5th
> IBPSA conference to be held in the Czech Republic :-) .
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Huang
> White Box Technologies, Inc.
> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
> Moraga CA 94556
> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
> (o) (925)388-0265
> (c) (510)928-2683
> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>
> On 1/29/2016 5:18 AM, Jones, Christopher wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> It would be very interesting to compare the methodologies in your paper with the
> results of the Morrison Herschfield research. BC Hydro published that detailed
> research.
>
> https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html?WT.mc_id=rd_thermalguide#thermal
>
> cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0
>
> *Christopher Jones,*P.Eng./
> /Senior Engineer
>
> **
>
> *WSP Canada Inc.*
>
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
> T +1 416-644-4226
>
> F +1 416-487-9766
>
> C +1 416-697-0056
>
> www.wspgroup.com <http://www.wspgroup.com/>
>
> *From:*Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Joe Huang
> *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 5:44 AM
> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor
> correction on dates).
>
> The work I did for the CEC was done in 1996 (as indicated in the report title), not
> 2000-2002, which was a follow-on effort to do 2-D foundation heat flows.
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Huang
>
> White Box Technologies, Inc.
>
> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
>
> Moraga CA 94556
>
> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
>
> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
>
> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
>
> (o) (925)388-0265
>
> (c) (510)928-2683
>
> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>
> On 1/29/2016 2:41 AM, Joe Huang wrote:
>
> I actually helped to develop a method to model thermal bridges in DOE-2 back in
> 1986 that has never been widely disseminated, although I still find it the most
> practical way to model 2-D heat flows in whole-building simulations.
>
> This method uses a two-dimensional finite-element program (WALFERFN) that
> calculates one-dimensional equivalent response factors which are written
> directly into the DOE-2 layers library (BDLLIB.DAT), which can then be called by
> DOE-2 just like any other response factor in the library.
>
> I've always used this technique in my residential modeling, with the added
> benefit of not needing to input duplicate sets of wall layers for the stud and
> non-stud portions, which measurably simplifies the models and makes them easier
> to read. The last time I did significant work on this subject was in 2000-2002,
> when I created for the California Energy Commission a library of over 100 wall
> layers with metal framing and thus considerable thermal bridging. I compared
> the wall assembly U-values to that calculated by ORNL's Heating-7 program, and
> they were right on. Unfortunately, a few years after the project was completed,
> the Commission decided to move to EnergyPlus as their reference program, and so
> this work was effectively abandoned.
>
> For more information on this technique, i.e., creating 2-D response factors,
> please see this report:
> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com/PAPERS/96_12_YJH_2Drespfacs_CEC_rpt.pdf
>
> If there's anyone who's still running DOE-2 in batch, rather than just the
> eQUEST interface, this procedure should be quite understandable. Just e-mail me
> and I'll be happy to give you a copy of the WALFERFN program and some sample
> input files.
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Huang
>
> White Box Technologies, Inc.
>
> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
>
> Moraga CA 94556
>
> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
>
> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
>
> http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
>
> (o) (925)388-0265
>
> (c) (510)928-2683
>
> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>
> On 1/28/2016 1:22 PM, Jim Dirkes wrote:
>
> There is also a landmark study by Morrison Hershfield in Canada which I
> don't have access to at the moment that should provide guidance.
>
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Marcus Sheffer <sheffer at sevengroup.com
> <mailto:sheffer at sevengroup.com>> wrote:
>
> Follow the guidance in ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix A to determine the whole
> assembly values.
>
> Marcus Sheffer
> 7group
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jones, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com
> <mailto:Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com>]
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 8:30 AM
> To: Luis Peréz-Lombard; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2
>
> Hello Sir,
> eQuest does not have the capability to directly model thermal bridges. The
> typical methodology is to calculate the effective U-value of the
> insulation/thermal bridge layer when building your layers for the
> construction. BC Hydro has published significant research on building
> envelope thermal bridging. See the lower portion of the webpage:
> https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html#thermal
>
>
>
>
> Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
> Senior Engineer
>
> WSP Canada Inc.
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
> T +1 416-644-4226 <tel:%2B1%20416-644-4226>
> F +1 416-487-9766 <tel:%2B1%20416-487-9766>
> C +1 416-697-0056 <tel:%2B1%20416-697-0056>
>
> www.wspgroup.com <http://www.wspgroup.com>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Luis Peréz-Lombard
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 4:08 AM
> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
> Subject: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2
>
> Dear building simulation colleagues,
> I would very much appreciate any insights or work around to simulate
> envelope thermal bridges in e-quest.
> Sincerely,
> LPL
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Luis Pérez-Lombard
> Dr. Ingeniero Industrial
> Profesor Contratado Doctor
> Departamento de Ingeniería Energética
> Escuela Superior de Ingenieros
> Universidad de Sevilla
> Camino de los Descubrimientos s/n
> 41092 SEVILLA
> Tfno.: 95.448.72.56
> Fax: 95.446.31.53
> e-mail: lpl at us.es <mailto:lpl at us.es>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bldg-sim mailing list
> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to
> BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
> <mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> You are receiving this communication because you are listed as a current WSP
> contact. Should you have any questions regarding WSP’s electronic
> communications policy, please consult our Anti-Spam Commitment
> www.wspgroup.com/casl <http://www.wspgroup.com/casl>. For any concern or if
> you believe you should not be receiving this message, please forward this
> message to us at caslcompliance at wspgroup.com
> <mailto:caslcompliance at wspgroup.com><mailto:caslcompliance at wspgroup.com
> <mailto:caslcompliance at wspgroup.com>> so that we can promptly address your
> request. This message is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information which is
> privileged, confidential, proprietary or exempt from disclosure under
> applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or the person
> responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are
> strictly prohibited from disclosing, distributing, copying or in any way
> using this message. If you have received this communication in error, please
> notify the sender, and destroy and delete any copies you may have received.
>
> WSP provides professional land surveying services through the following
> entities: WSP Surveys (AB) Limited Partnership and WSP Surveys (BC) Limited
> Partnership
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bldg-sim mailing list
> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to
> BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
> <mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
>
> --
>
> James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
> CEO/President
> The Building Performance Team Inc.
> 1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504
>
> Direct: 616.450.8653
> jim at buildingperformanceteam.com <mailto:jim at buildingperformanceteam.com>
>
> Website <http://buildingperformanceteamcom>l LinkedIn
> <https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413>
>
> Fail faster!
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Bldg-sim mailing list
>
> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
>
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message toBLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
> <mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> You are receiving this communication because you are listed as a current WSP
> contact. Should you have any questions regarding WSP’s electronic communications
> policy, please consult our Anti-Spam Commitment www.wspgroup.com/casl. For any
> concern or if you believe you should not be receiving this message, please forward
> this message to us at caslcompliance at wspgroup.com
> <mailto:caslcompliance at wspgroup.com> so that we can promptly address your request.
> This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is
> addressed, and may contain information which is privileged, confidential,
> proprietary or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the
> intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the message to the
> intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, distributing,
> copying or in any way using this message. If you have received this communication in
> error, please notify the sender, and destroy and delete any copies you may have
> received.
>
> WSP provides professional land surveying services through the following entities:
> WSP Surveys (AB) Limited Partnership and WSP Surveys (BC) Limited Partnership
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> You are receiving this communication because you are listed as a current WSP contact.
> Should you have any questions regarding WSP’s electronic communications policy, please
> consult our Anti-Spam Commitment www.wspgroup.com/casl. For any concern or if you
> believe you should not be receiving this message, please forward this message to us at
> caslcompliance at wspgroup.com <mailto:caslcompliance at wspgroup.com> so that we can promptly
> address your request. This message is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information which is privileged,
> confidential, proprietary or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not
> the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the message to the
> intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, distributing, copying
> or in any way using this message. If you have received this communication in error,
> please notify the sender, and destroy and delete any copies you may have received.
>
> WSP provides professional land surveying services through the following entities: WSP
> Surveys (AB) Limited Partnership and WSP Surveys (BC) Limited Partnership
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You are receiving this communication because you are listed as a current WSP contact.
> Should you have any questions regarding WSP’s electronic communications policy, please
> consult our Anti-Spam Commitment www.wspgroup.com/casl. For any concern or if you
> believe you should not be receiving this message, please forward this message to us at
> caslcompliance at wspgroup.com <mailto:caslcompliance at wspgroup.com> so that we can promptly
> address your request. This message is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information which is privileged,
> confidential, proprietary or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not
> the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the message to the
> intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, distributing, copying
> or in any way using this message. If you have received this communication in error,
> please notify the sender, and destroy and delete any copies you may have received.
>
> WSP provides professional land surveying services through the following entities: WSP
> Surveys (AB) Limited Partnership and WSP Surveys (BC) Limited Partnership
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20160203/1fa39cec/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/png
Size: 6574 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20160203/1fa39cec/attachment-0006.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/png
Size: 7826 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20160203/1fa39cec/attachment-0007.png>
More information about the Bldg-sim
mailing list