[Bldg-sim] LEED project - maximum limit allowed to simplified wall azimuth.
Joe Huang via Bldg-sim
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Thu Dec 15 11:37:00 PST 2016
Julien,
Also make sure that the surface areas of the walls and windows are exactly the same between the different models.
The only test should be of wall orientation, not of surface-to-volume ratios. I used to play these games, like taking a rectangular footprint and distribute the walls equally in the four cardinal directions in order to remove any directional bias.
Joe
Sent from my iPad
> On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:49 AM, via Bldg-sim <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks Leonard and Nick.
>
> I will model a building with octagonal shape and one with square equivalent shape in the next day. I will let you know the results.
> Nick, if you find the “circular to square” study, I will more than happy to read it!
>
> Have a good day
>
> Julien
>
>
> De : Nicholas Caton [mailto:Nicholas.Caton at schneider-electric.com]
> Envoyé : 15 décembre 2016 13:25
> À : Leonard Sciarra <leonard_sciarra at gensler.com>; Dutel, Julien (BEIE) <Julien.Dutel at mern.gouv.qc.ca>
> Cc : bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Objet : RE: [Bldg-sim] LEED project - maximum limit allowed to simplified wall azimuth.
>
> Put another way:
>
> If you have a perfectly circular floorplate, ASHRAE wants you to model an octagon, with respect to a minimum number of facets.
>
> This specific query reminds me: There was a pretty interesting thought-study presented at ASHRAE’s energy conference in 2015 where someone tested this logic, by asking the question (paraphrasing) “how few facets can we get away with and still accurately represent a perfect circle?” I don’t recall exactly the answer but the results surprised me with how far you could go in simplifying the shape & still maintain relative accuracy. I believe a 4 sided square (corrected geometrically for volume) in fact performed very closely to the baseline.
>
> If you’re sincerely & specifically interested in modeling an octagon as a square, I think you’ll find that could actually be pretty accurate so long as you are correcting for conditioned volume / exposed area. I’d seek out that actual paper/presentation while you’re at it ;-).
>
> ~Nick
>
>
> <image001.png>
> Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP
> Senior Energy Engineer
> Energy and Sustainability Services
> Schneider Electric
> D 913.564.6361
> M 785.410.3317
> E nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com
> F 913.564.6380
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>
>
>
> From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Leonard Sciarra via Bldg-sim
> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 12:05 PM
> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED project - maximum limit allowed to simplified wall azimuth.
>
> Julian –
>
> The text is written to include 45 degrees. So if they are 45 degrees, then you can make it a square, although the exception was intended for curved surfaces.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Leonard Sciarra, AIA, ASHRAE, LEED ap+
> Senior Associate
> +1 312.577.6580 Direct
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> From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of via Bldg-sim
> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:17 AM
> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: [Bldg-sim] LEED project - maximum limit allowed to simplified wall azimuth.
>
> Hello,
>
> Does anyone know how to interpret “no more than 45 degrees” of exception 5.b - table G3.1 (90.1-2007/2010/2013) ? :
>
> 5. Building Envelope
> All components of the building envelope in the proposed design shall be modeled as shown on architectural drawings or as built for existing building envelopes.
>
> Exceptions:
> b. Exterior surfaces whose azimuth orientation and tilt differ by no more than 45 degrees and are otherwise the same may be described as either a single surface or by using multipliers.
>
> Because “no more than 45 degree” include 45 degree, does the exception still apply if the azimuth of two walls is exactly 45 degrees?
> In other words, considering a LEED project, can a perfect octagonal building shape be modeled as a square building (as long as they have the same floor area and the 8 walls have a similar construction) ?
>
> Thanks
>
> Julien
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Julien Dutel, ing., CEM, CMVP.
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