<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><span></span></div><div><div>Julien,</div><div><br></div><div>Also make sure that the surface areas of the walls and windows are exactly the same between the different models.</div><div><br></div><div>The only test should be of wall orientation, not of surface-to-volume ratios. I used to play these games, like taking a rectangular footprint and distribute the walls equally in the four cardinal directions in order to remove any directional bias.</div><div><br></div><div>Joe<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:49 AM, via Bldg-sim <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thanks Leonard and Nick. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I will model a building with octagonal shape and one with square equivalent shape in the next day. I will let you know the results.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Nick, if you find the “circular to square” study, I will more than happy to read it!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Have a good day<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Julien<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-CA">De :</span></b><span lang="EN-CA"> Nicholas Caton [<a href="mailto:Nicholas.Caton@schneider-electric.com">mailto:Nicholas.Caton@schneider-electric.com</a>] <br><b>Envoyé :</b> 15 décembre 2016 13:25<br><b>À :</b> Leonard Sciarra <<a href="mailto:leonard_sciarra@gensler.com">leonard_sciarra@gensler.com</a>>; Dutel, Julien (BEIE) <<a href="mailto:Julien.Dutel@mern.gouv.qc.ca">Julien.Dutel@mern.gouv.qc.ca</a>><br><b>Cc :</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Objet :</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] LEED project - maximum limit allowed to simplified wall azimuth.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Put another way:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">If you have a perfectly circular floorplate, ASHRAE wants you to model an octagon, with respect to a minimum number of facets.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This specific query reminds me: There was a pretty interesting thought-study presented at ASHRAE’s energy conference in 2015 where someone tested this logic, by asking the question (paraphrasing) “how few facets can we get away with and still accurately represent a perfect circle?” I don’t recall exactly the answer but the results surprised me with how far you could go in simplifying the shape & still maintain relative accuracy. I believe a 4 sided square (corrected geometrically for volume) in fact performed very closely to the baseline.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">If you’re sincerely & specifically interested in modeling an octagon as a square, I think you’ll find that could actually be pretty accurate so long as you are correcting for conditioned volume / exposed area. I’d seek out that actual paper/presentation while you’re at it ;-).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><image001.png></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="724" style="width:543.0pt;border-collapse:collapse"><tbody><tr><td width="230" valign="top" style="width:172.3pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Schneider Electric</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width="291" valign="top" style="width:218.3pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">D </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913.564.6361 </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">M </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">785.410.3317 </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">E </span><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:nicholas.caton@schneider-electric.com"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">nicholas.caton@schneider-electric.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">F </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913.564.6380</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width="203" valign="top" style="width:152.4pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive<br>Suite 204<br>Lenexa, KS 66219<br>United States</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr style="height:4.0pt"><td width="724" colspan="3" valign="top" style="width:543.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm;height:4.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-line-height-alt:4.0pt"><span style="color:#3A7A46"><img border="0" width="722" height="49" id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image002.png@01D256DA.0A3E4CC0" alt="cid:image001.png@01D189AB.58634A10"></span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></tbody></table><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Bldg-sim [<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Leonard Sciarra via Bldg-sim<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 15, 2016 12:05 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED project - maximum limit allowed to simplified wall azimuth.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Julian – </span></a><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">The text is written to include 45 degrees. So if they are 45 degrees, then you can make it a square, although the exception was intended for curved surfaces.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Hope this helps.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <br><b>Leonard Sciarra, AIA, ASHRAE, LEED ap+ </b><br>Senior Associate <br>+1 312.577.6580 Direct <br>+1 312.456.0123 Main <br>+1 847.345.5619 Mobile <br> <br></span><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#EE3224">Gensler </span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><br>11 East Madison Street<br>Suite 300 <br>Chicago, Illinois 60602 <br>USA</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.gensler.com/"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Gensler.com</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> | </span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.gensleron.com/"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Blog</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> | </span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/GenslerDesign"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Facebook</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> | </span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.twitter.com/GenslerOnCities"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Twitter</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> | </span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/GenslerTV"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">YouTube</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">What’s ahead for design and our clients?</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Find out here: </span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.gensler.com/doc/gensler-design-forecast-2016"><b><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:red">Gensler Design Forecast 2016</span></i></b></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Bldg-sim [<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>via Bldg-sim<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:17 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] LEED project - maximum limit allowed to simplified wall azimuth.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif">Hello,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif">Does anyone know how to interpret “</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">no more than 45 degrees” of </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif">exception 5.b - table G3.1 (90.1-2007/2010/2013) ? : </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">5. Building Envelope</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt;text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">All components of the building envelope in the proposed design shall be modeled as shown on architectural drawings or as built for existing building envelopes. </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt;text-indent:35.4pt;text-autospace:none"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Exceptions:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt;text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">b. Exterior surfaces whose azimuth orientation and tilt differ by no more than 45 degrees and are otherwise the same may be described as either a single surface or by using multipliers.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif">Because “no more than 45 degree” include 45 degree, does the exception still apply if the azimuth of two walls is exactly 45 degrees? </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif">In other words, considering a LEED project, can a perfect octagonal building shape be modeled as a square building (as long as they have the same floor area and the 8 walls have a similar construction) ?</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif">Thanks</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif">Julien</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif",serif;color:#1F497D">____________________________________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Julien Dutel,</span></b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> ing., </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">CEM, CMVP<b>.</b></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5">Direction des secteurs </span></b><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5">résidentiel, institutionnel et des affaires</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5">Bureau de l'efficacité et de l'innovation énergétiques</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5">Ministère de l'Énergie et des Ressources naturelles</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5">5700, 4e Avenue Ouest, B-406</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5">Québec (Québec) G1H 6R1</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5">Téléphone : 418 627-6379, poste 8060</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5">Téléphone sans frais : 1 877 727-6655</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5">Télécopieur : 418 643-5828</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:julien.dutel@mern.gouv.qc.ca"><span style="color:blue">julien.dutel@mern.gouv.qc.ca</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5"><a href="http://mern.gouv.qc.ca">mern.gouv.qc.ca</a></span></b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br>______________________________________________________________________<br>This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.<br>______________________________________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New 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