[Equest-users] Adjacent Shells

[Pasha Korber-Gonzalez]

Echoing Dakota's points, it is always good advice and good simulation
practice to simplify inputs when possible.  To stay with the one-shell
approach and still represent the thermal effects of three different
constructions on each wall, you can always take the "area weighted" approach
for the three thermal values (R-value or U-values).  This takes some up
front calcs outside of eQuest, but will keep your input values, and model
file much simpler and easier to work with.

For each wall, take the [% area of (Construction 1) X the R/U-value of
(Construction 1) + % area of (Construction 2) X the R/U-value of
(Construction 2) + % area of (Construction 3) X the R/U-value of
(Construction 3)] = The overall R/U-value that you will enter for your wall
construction performance values.

For my personal approach, I would rather do the manipulation work outside of
eQuest, than try to 'muscle' eQuest into doing *all* the details. This is
the approach I would take.  Becareful though, if you're doing a complaince
model, you need to be mindful of approach's like this that might
'over-simplify' what you need to achieve.

At least now you have some options of how to get to where you are going...

Pasha


PK Consulting
pasha.pkconsulting at gmail.com

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Dakota Kelley <dakotak at teliospc.com>wrote:

>  Sheri,
>
>
>
> After reading the subtext of this message chain, what I think you’re trying
> to accomplish is not possible in the wizard (multiple exterior wall
> constructions with inter-zone heat transfer).  I’m sure this undermines all
> the work you’ve done thus far, but you’ll save quite a bit of time and have
> a much better project by adjusting the exterior wall constructions in the
> detailed interface rather than creating a new shell for each construction.
> Let me explain and comment on the message history:
>
>
>
> ·         eQUEST will create *adiabatic* interior walls between two
> adjacent shells if the shell coordinates line up along a common plane.
> Therefore, if the end goal of creating multiple shells is to account for
> inter-shell heat transfer and have multiple exterior wall constructions,
> some use of the detailed interface is required.  You will have to adjust
> either the interior walls (from adiabatic to standard) or the exterior wall
> constructions in the detailed interface.  It is by far faster to adjust the
> exterior wall constructions.  If you opt to change the interior walls from
> adiabatic to standard, you’ll be prompted for the adjacent zone for each
> wall.  If you have three shells per floor, it sounds like you’ll need to
> create a spreadsheet or rename all zones in all shells to something more
> identifiable than “EL1 East Perim Zn (G.E2)”.
>
> ·         In the wizard, when a zone is created that is partially exterior
> and partially adjacent to another shell, the walls along the plane of
> intersection will be broken up between interior and exterior walls according
> to what’s on the other side.  Where the two zones in separate shells touch,
> each zone will be assigned an adiabatic interior wall as mentioned above.
>
> ·         Per Jim’s example below, for any wall that is drawn in the
> wizard but does not touch the building footprint or another zone, an
> adiabatic interior wall will be assigned.  The wall is basically there to
> soothe the user – eQUEST couldn’t care less if the wall is adiabatic or not
> there at all.
>
> ·         By definition, an interior wall (adiabatic or standard) will
> never communicate thermally with the exterior.  For what Nick described
> below to occur, one would have to use the detailed interface to manually
> assign an interior wall construction to a wall that is defined as exterior.
> The conversation has mixed the concepts of wall type and construction –
> these are separate properties.  Wall type dictates where heat is
> transferred, construction simply dictates the rate and delay (thermal
> massing).
>
> ·         Also by definition, an exterior wall will never communicate
> thermally between two zones; it can only transfer thermal energy between its
> parent zone and the exterior
>
> ·         I used the tons-of-shells approach on my first project and ended
> up with over 10 shells.  eQUEST would crash when I tried to run the
> simulation.  What I didn’t quite realize is that when you create a new
> shell, eQUEST is going to create new occupancy, lighting, equipment, etc.,
> schedules as well as new constructions for all interior and exterior
> surfaces.  True, each shell’s schedules and constructions could have the
> same properties, but they are still viewed as separate entities and add a
> lot of weight to your project file.  At four or five shells users will see a
> noticeable delay in opening, saving, and simulating files.  Done to extreme,
> the project becomes too cumbersome to simulate.
>
> ·         One can be assured that time, complication, and frustration will
> be added to any project by trying to do it all in the wizard.
>
>
>
>
>
> With regard to what you’ve witnessed thus far, I would bet that there’s a
> conflict between the coordinates/reference location a shell is given on
> Wizard Screen 1 and where that shell is actually drawn on Screen 2 (assuming
> you’re tracing a CAD file).  Where it did create an internal wall, the
> common plane between Screen 1 and 2 jived.  That’s about as accurately as I
> can describe it in an email.  Try creating two adjacent shells in a test
> file using only site coordinates and aspect ratios and you’ll see what I
> mean after inspecting the shells in the detailed interface.
>
>
>
> To bring this full-circle, it will be faster and more accurate to create as
> few shells as possible in the wizard and then use the detailed interface to
> create/assign additional wall constructions.  The most prevalent wall
> construction should be specified in the wizard to reduce the number of
> changes in the detailed interface.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> *                        DAKOTA KELLEY*
> **
>
>                                 Project Designer
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> *From:* Nick Caton [mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 11, 2009 2:26 PM
> *To:* Crockett, Jim; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Adjacent Shells
>
>
>
> Jim,
>
>
>
> I think the issue-at-hand here, if I’m understanding correctly, is that
> there’s concern an internal wall created by avoiding the footprint perimeter
> will simply use the defined internal wall construction and transfer to/from
> the outside… I’m not certain (and I haven’t tested this) that you want to
> answer “don’t care” without verifying this isn’t the modeled behavior.
>
>
>
> ~Nick
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]**
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, E.I.T.***
>
> PROJECT ENGINEER
>
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>
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>
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>
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Crockett, Jim
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 11, 2009 1:15 PM
> *To:* John Aulbach; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Adjacent Shells
>
>
>
> Not sure.  But if the set point on both sides of the wall is the same, the
> heat transfer will be negligible.  Short answer is ‘don’t care.’
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* John Aulbach [mailto:jra_sac at yahoo.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:13 PM
> *To:* Crockett, Jim; Rocha, Sheri; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Adjacent Shells
>
>
>
> Jim:
>
>
>
> Will you get the internal heat ransfer between these walls? Or will you
> care?
>
>
>
>
>
> John R. Aulbach, PE, CEM
>
> Senior Energy Engineer
>   ------------------------------
>
> *Partner Energy*
>
> 1990 E. Grand Avenue, El Segundo, CA 90245
> W: 888-826-1216, X254| D: 310-765-7295 | F: 310-817-2745
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> www.ptrenergy.com | jaulbach at ptrenergy.com <%7C%20jaulbach at ptrenergy.com>
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* "Crockett, Jim" <Jcrockett at nexant.com>
> *To:* "Rocha, Sheri" <srocha at mkkeng.com>;
> equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Sent:* Wed, November 11, 2009 9:28:33 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Adjacent Shells
>
> We accidentally stumbled onto a way of doing this.
>
>
>
> If the walls on the zoning tab do not line up with the walls on the shell
> tab, they will show up as internal walls.
>
>
>
> *Example 1*
>
> Shell:
>
> (0,0)  (100,0)  (100,100) (0,100)
>
> Zone:
>
> (1,1) (99,1) (99,99) (1,99)
>
>
>
> This will create a zone surrounded by 4 internal walls.
>
>
>
> *Example 2*
>
> Shell:
>
> (0,0)  (100,0)  (100,100) (0,100)
>
> Zone:
>
> (1,0) (99,0) (99,99) (1,99)
>
>
>
> Will create a zone with 1 external wall ( on the south side) and 3 internal
> walls.
>
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Rocha, Sheri
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:45 AM
> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* [Equest-users] Adjacent Shells
>
>
>
> I am modeling a building with multiple wall types therefore I have 3 shells
> per floor.  I am trying to figure out how to have the adjacent walls between
> shells be modeled as interior instead of exterior.  In one of spot they came
> out as interior, but I am not sure how I did it.  I am trying to do as much
> in the wizard as possible.   Does anyone know how to do this??
>
>
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
>
>
> Sheri Rocha, P.E. , LEEDTM AP
> Senior Mechanical Engineer
> srocha at mkkeng.com
> *www.mkkeng.com*
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