<div>Echoing Dakota's points, it is always good advice and good simulation practice to simplify inputs when possible. To stay with the one-shell approach and still represent the thermal effects of three different constructions on each wall, you can always take the "area weighted" approach for the three thermal values (R-value or U-values). This takes some up front calcs outside of eQuest, but will keep your input values, and model file much simpler and easier to work with.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>For each wall, take the [% area of (Construction 1) X the R/U-value of (Construction 1) + % area of (Construction 2) X the R/U-value of (Construction 2) + % area of (Construction 3) X the R/U-value of (Construction 3)] = The overall R/U-value that you will enter for your wall construction performance values.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>For my personal approach, I would rather do the manipulation work outside of eQuest, than try to 'muscle' eQuest into doing <u>all</u> the details. This is the approach I would take. Becareful though, if you're doing a complaince model, you need to be mindful of approach's like this that might 'over-simplify' what you need to achieve. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>At least now you have some options of how to get to where you are going...</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Pasha</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>PK Consulting</div>
<div><a href="mailto:pasha.pkconsulting@gmail.com">pasha.pkconsulting@gmail.com</a> <br><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Dakota Kelley <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dakotak@teliospc.com">dakotak@teliospc.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Sheri,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">After reading the subtext of this message chain, what I think you’re trying to accomplish is not possible in the wizard (multiple exterior wall constructions with inter-zone heat transfer). I’m sure this undermines all the work you’ve done thus far, but you’ll save quite a bit of time and have a much better project by adjusting the exterior wall constructions in the detailed interface rather than creating a new shell for each construction. Let me explain and comment on the message history: </span></p>
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<p><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Symbol"><span>·<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span></span><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">eQUEST will create <u>adiabatic</u> interior walls between two adjacent shells if the shell coordinates line up along a common plane. Therefore, if the end goal of creating multiple shells is to account for inter-shell heat transfer and have multiple exterior wall constructions, some use of the detailed interface is required. You will have to adjust either the interior walls (from adiabatic to standard) or the exterior wall constructions in the detailed interface. It is by far faster to adjust the exterior wall constructions. If you opt to change the interior walls from adiabatic to standard, you’ll be prompted for the adjacent zone for each wall. If you have three shells per floor, it sounds like you’ll need to create a spreadsheet or rename all zones in all shells to something more identifiable than “EL1 East Perim Zn (G.E2)”.</span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Symbol"><span>·<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span></span><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">In the wizard, when a zone is created that is partially exterior and partially adjacent to another shell, the walls along the plane of intersection will be broken up between interior and exterior walls according to what’s on the other side. Where the two zones in separate shells touch, each zone will be assigned an adiabatic interior wall as mentioned above.</span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Symbol"><span>·<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span></span><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Per Jim’s example below, for any wall that is drawn in the wizard but does not touch the building footprint or another zone, an adiabatic interior wall will be assigned. The wall is basically there to soothe the user – eQUEST couldn’t care less if the wall is adiabatic or not there at all.</span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Symbol"><span>·<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span></span><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">By definition, an interior wall (adiabatic or standard) will never communicate thermally with the exterior. For what Nick described below to occur, one would have to use the detailed interface to manually assign an interior wall construction to a wall that is defined as exterior. The conversation has mixed the concepts of wall type and construction – these are separate properties. Wall type dictates where heat is transferred, construction simply dictates the rate and delay (thermal massing).</span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Symbol"><span>·<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span></span><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Also by definition, an exterior wall will never communicate thermally between two zones; it can only transfer thermal energy between its parent zone and the exterior </span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Symbol"><span>·<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span></span><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">I used the tons-of-shells approach on my first project and ended up with over 10 shells. eQUEST would crash when I tried to run the simulation. What I didn’t quite realize is that when you create a new shell, eQUEST is going to create new occupancy, lighting, equipment, etc., schedules as well as new constructions for all interior and exterior surfaces. True, each shell’s schedules and constructions could have the same properties, but they are still viewed as separate entities and add a lot of weight to your project file. At four or five shells users will see a noticeable delay in opening, saving, and simulating files. Done to extreme, the project becomes too cumbersome to simulate.</span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Symbol"><span>·<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span></span><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">One can be assured that time, complication, and frustration will be added to any project by trying to do it all in the wizard.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">With regard to what you’ve witnessed thus far, I would bet that there’s a conflict between the coordinates/reference location a shell is given on Wizard Screen 1 and where that shell is actually drawn on Screen 2 (assuming you’re tracing a CAD file). Where it did create an internal wall, the common plane between Screen 1 and 2 jived. That’s about as accurately as I can describe it in an email. Try creating two adjacent shells in a test file using only site coordinates and aspect ratios and you’ll see what I mean after inspecting the shells in the detailed interface.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">To bring this full-circle, it will be faster and more accurate to create as few shells as possible in the wizard and then use the detailed interface to create/assign additional wall constructions. The most prevalent wall construction should be specified in the wizard to reduce the number of changes in the detailed interface. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Regards,</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-TRANSFORM: uppercase; COLOR: black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="MARGIN-TOP: 2px; MIN-HEIGHT: 90px; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; WIDTH: 71px"><img height="90" width="71"></span><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black"> DAKOTA KELLEY</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black"> </span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: black"> </span><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black"></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Nick Caton [mailto:<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com" target="_blank">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>] <br>
<div class="im"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 11, 2009 2:26 PM<br></div><b>To:</b> Crockett, Jim; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
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<div></div>
<div class="h5"><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Adjacent Shells</div></div></span>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Jim,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">I think the issue-at-hand here, if I’m understanding correctly, is that there’s concern an internal wall created by avoiding the footprint perimeter will simply use the defined internal wall construction and transfer to/from the outside… I’m not certain (and I haven’t tested this) that you want to answer “don’t care” without verifying this isn’t the modeled behavior.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">~Nick</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="COLOR: #2d4d5e">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e"></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Crockett, Jim<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 11, 2009 1:15 PM<br><b>To:</b> John Aulbach; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Adjacent Shells</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Not sure. But if the set point on both sides of the wall is the same, the heat transfer will be negligible. Short answer is ‘don’t care.’</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> John Aulbach [mailto:<a href="mailto:jra_sac@yahoo.com" target="_blank">jra_sac@yahoo.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Crockett, Jim; Rocha, Sheri; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Adjacent Shells</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Jim:</p></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Will you get the internal heat ransfer between these walls? Or will you care?</p></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">John R. Aulbach, PE, CEM</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Senior Energy Engineer</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">1990 E. Grand Avenue, El Segundo, CA 90245</span><br><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">W: 888-826-1216, X254| D: 310-765-7295 | F: 310-817-2745</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> "Crockett, Jim" <<a href="mailto:Jcrockett@nexant.com" target="_blank">Jcrockett@nexant.com</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> "Rocha, Sheri" <<a href="mailto:srocha@mkkeng.com" target="_blank">srocha@mkkeng.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wed, November 11, 2009 9:28:33 AM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Adjacent Shells</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">We accidentally stumbled onto a way of doing this.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">If the walls on the zoning tab do not line up with the walls on the shell tab, they will show up as internal walls.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Example 1</span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Shell:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">(0,0) (100,0) (100,100) (0,100)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Zone:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">(1,1) (99,1) (99,99) (1,99)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">This will create a zone surrounded by 4 internal walls.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Example 2</span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Shell:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">(0,0) (100,0) (100,100) (0,100)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Zone:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">(1,0) (99,0) (99,99) (1,99)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Will create a zone with 1 external wall ( on the south side) and 3 internal walls.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Hope this helps.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Jim</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Rocha, Sheri<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:45 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Adjacent Shells</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am modeling a building with multiple wall types therefore I have 3 shells per floor. I am trying to figure out how to have the adjacent walls between shells be modeled as interior instead of exterior. In one of spot they came out as interior, but I am not sure how I did it. I am trying to do as much in the wizard as possible. Does anyone know how to do this??</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for your help.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Sheri Rocha, P.E.</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'"> </span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">, </span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #007a37">LEED<sup>TM </sup>AP</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'"><br>
</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Senior Mechanical Engineer</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'"> <br></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'"><a href="mailto:srocha@mkkeng.com" target="_blank"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'">srocha@mkkeng.com</span></a></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'"> <br>
</span><u><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'"><a href="http://www.mkkeng.com/" target="_blank"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'">www.mkkeng.com</span></a></span></u><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt; COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: Webdings">P</span><span style="COLOR: green"> </span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: green">Save a Tree. Don't print this e-mail unless necessary.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">7600 E. Orchard Road</span> <br><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Suite 250-S</span> <br><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Greenwood Village, CO. 80111</span> <br>
<span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Direct: 303-796-6062</span> <br><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Main: 303-796-6000</span> <br><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Fax: 303-796-6099</span> </p>
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