[TRNSYS-users] there are some questions about TRNFLOW 's TEST DATA thanks!

David BRADLEY d.bradley at tess-inc.com
Wed Mar 2 07:28:46 PST 2011


Wang,
   If your questions are not being answered on this user forum, they 
should be directed to the distributor from whom you purchased TRNFlow.
Regards,
  David


On 3/2/2011 07:41, 王洋 wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
>  I have some questions about TRNFLOW 's TEST DATA:
>
>
>
> To "test data" :  :
>
> 1. I defined "test data", I defined initial CO2% as 1000 ppm(0.00164 
> kg/kg) in the test room in TRNFlow, and I defined the ambient CO2% as 
> 400 ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg). But after running, the ambient CO2% as 400 
> ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg) doesn't work, the indoor CO2% reduce beyond 400 
> ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg) and up to 6.00E-10kg/kg, i think the air flow 
> rate in test data works all the time, the ambient CO2% as 400 
> ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg) doesn't work.
> So I defined an Equation in simulation studio: when CONZ(the indoor 
> CO2% )<0.00065726, air flow factor is 0. What's the meaning of air 
> flow factor?
>  I think the above problem's reason is air flow factor(1) works all 
> the time. Is my thought right or not? Please see the ATTACHED 1st and 
> 2nd. Please have a look at my programs whether are they right or not? 
> If not please correct them. thanks!
>
>
>
> But after running, I found CO2% reducing rate of the curve is very 
> faster than my actual measurement in the test room. Please see the 
> ATTACTED 3rd and 4th. To 3rd you can see only about 2 hours the CO2% 
> got to 400 ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg), but to 4th the actual measurement 
> curve in the test room: it needs about 10 hours to get to 400 
> ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg). Please explain it, why the difference is so 
> bigger? Or please see the ATTACHED 1st and 2nd to verify the CO2% 
> reducing curve in TRNFlow with ATTACTED 4th the actual measurement curve.
>
> 2. Please tell me how to get the CO2% data etc. of TRNFlow output 
> after running?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> Br.
>
> wang
>
>
> 2011/2/24 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com 
> <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>>
>
>     Dear Mr Wang,
>     it is not working to use CO2 concentrations if you turn off TRNFLOW.
>     So you will have to use TRNFLOW and if you want to define a fixed
>     infiltration rate, then you could use the link type "test data"
>     and so define the 0.52xx ACH.
>     Best regards
>     Christian Frenzel
>
>     TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>
>     hotline at transsolar.com <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>
>
>     www.trnsys.de <http://www.trnsys.de/>
>
>     Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes
>     Bauen und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>
>     Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart /
>     Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639
>
>     Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas
>     Auer, Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *Von:* 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com
>     <mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>]
>     *Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 23. Februar 2011 10:48
>     *An:* hotline
>     *Betreff:* Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions
>     about TRNSYS
>
>     Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>
>           Thanks!
>
>           In the TRNFlow manual: there it is explained that "As soon
>     as TRNFLOW is turned on, (...) in the simulation the defined
>     infiltrations, ventilations and couplings will be replaced with
>     the calculated air flows."          The fact is that I defined
>     initial CO2% as 1000 ppm(0.00164 kg/kg) in the test room in
>     TRNFlow, and I defined the ambient CO2% as 380 ppm(0.0005819
>     kg/kg). Meanwhile,  I defined the infiltration rate as 0.5276 1/h
>     in TRNBUILD.  I want to compare the CO2% reducing curve in the
>     test room based on the infiltration rate  0.5276 1/h of actual
>     measurement value with by TRNSYS simulation. But when I used
>     TRNFLOW, the defined infiltration rate as 0.5276 1/h in TRNBUILD
>     was replaced maybe.  1000 ppm in the test room keeps constant.
>     Please see the ATTACHED.
>
>         Please explain this! Or tell me how to define in
>     TRNSYS/TRNFlow in order to compare the test room infiltration rate
>     of actual measurement value with by TRNSYS/TRNFlow simulation? I
>     want to observe CO2%'s reducing curve when infiltration rate is
>     0.5276 1/h (I measured the value in the test room) using
>     TRNSYS/TRNFlow, to observe the  CO2%'s reducing curve whether is
>     the same as the actual measuring CO2%'s reducing curve or not?
>
>        Many thanks!
>
>       Br.
>
>     wang
>
>
>     2011/2/22 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com
>     <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>>
>
>         Dear Mr Wang,
>         1) unfortunately I have no advice to this
>         2) The steps of the air temperature are resulting from the
>         WALL TRANSFER FUNCTION CALCULATION. You are using a very small
>         timestep of the simulation the wall transfer function is
>         updated only every hour (that's the timebase). This is why you
>         are getting these steps. So you would have to decrease the
>         TIMEBASE by reducing the walls thickness.
>         3) Please have a look at the energy balance for a zone. You'll
>         find these information in the MultizoneBuilding Manual on page
>         43 chapter Balance 4
>         Best regards
>         Christian Frenzel
>
>         TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>
>         hotline at transsolar.com <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>
>
>         www.trnsys.de <http://www.trnsys.de/>
>
>         Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für
>         energieeffizientes Bauen und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>
>         Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563
>         Stuttgart / Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id:
>         DE152272639
>
>         Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas
>         Auer, Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         *Von:* 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com
>         <mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>]
>         *Gesendet:* Montag, 21. Februar 2011 11:12
>         *An:* hotline
>         *Betreff:* Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions
>         about TRNSYS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>
>          Many thanks!
>
>          After I installed both of them once again, it's OK.
>
>         1. To radiative part: The test room has 2 heatings: one is
>         radiator, its power is 578 W, another is convector, its power
>         is 540 W. How can I define this situation's radiative part? As
>         you said can I think both of them have only convective part?
>         So I define the radiative part is 0 or not? As you know, it is
>         very difficult to make sure what's the convective and
>         radiative part of this test room situation. But my professor
>         let me figure it out, so can I define the radiative part as 0?
>         Or do you have some experience about this radiative part defining?
>
>         2. To thermal time constant: Thermal time constants are a
>         feature of the lumped system analysis
>         <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumped_system_analysis> (lumped
>         capacity analysis method) for thermal systems, used when
>         objects cool or warm uniformly under the influence of
>         convective cooling or warming. In this case, the heat transfer
>         from the body to the ambient at a given time is proportional
>         to the temperature difference between the body and the ambient.
>         Physically, the constant represents the time it takes the
>         system's step response
>         <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step_response> to reach 1-1/e
>         \approx 63.2% of its final (asymptotic) value.
>
>         Please see ATTACHED 1st: Tset-point is 21°C from 8 am to 6 pm,
>         other is 20°C, Thermal time constant of this test room is the
>         time that Tindoor air gets to the 20°C
>         +63.2%(21-20°C)=20.632°C. But this is at the situation of
>         floor heating. I want to simulate the situation when using
>         Radiator and Convector.
>         Please see ATTACHED 2nd: The result is very strange. T indoor
>         air which rises from lower temperature to higher appeares 3
>         jumps, this is very strange, because I closed all the windows
>         and turned off TRNFLOW, only defined the infiltration in order
>         to simulate the actual situation of the test room. But,
>         meanwhile, QHeat is keeping constant.
>         Please see the .tpf and ,bui files of ATTACHED.
>
>
>         Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant of the
>         test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the
>         ideal heating?
>
>
>
>          3. To ideal heating: Where is this heating? Can I define its
>         position? How is it operating or working?
>
>         Many thanks!
>
>         br.
>
>         wang
>
>
>         2011/2/18 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com
>         <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>>
>
>             Dear Mr Wang,
>             I assume that after installing the TRNSYS 17.00.0019
>             version you installed the latest TRNFLOW version from the
>             12.1.2011 .
>             These two versions have to be installed. If you have these
>             two then please make sure that you have fully reading and
>             writing rights for the TRNSYS 17 installation folder.
>             Every heat source has a certain radiative part and
>             convective part, it's up to you to define these values. If
>             you want to get further information about this please
>             refer to common literature about heat exchange.
>             Ideal heating means a theoretical value that directly
>             interacts with the energy balance of an airnode. It
>             represents the heating that is required/available to heat
>             up the room air temperature. The energy balance of an
>             airnode you can find in the MultizoneBuilding manual.
>             If you explain me the meaning of the TIME CONSTANT and the
>             context of what you are comparing then maybe we could have
>             an advice.
>
>             Best regards
>
>             Christian Frenzel
>
>             TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>
>             hotline at transsolar.com <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>
>
>             www.trnsys.de <http://www.trnsys.de/>
>
>             Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für
>             energieeffizientes Bauen und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>
>             Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563
>             Stuttgart / Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id:
>             DE152272639
>
>             Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing.
>             Thomas Auer, Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>
>
>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>             *Von:* 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com
>             <mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>]
>             *Gesendet:* Freitag, 18. Februar 2011 14:16
>             *An:* hotline
>             *Betreff:* Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions
>             about TRNSYS
>
>             Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>
>             Please tell me: All the program is OK, but after I update
>             the TRNFlow, I want to RUN or right-click TYPE 56 and
>             select EDIT Building, it appears at once Visual Studio
>             Debugger Window! I cann't RUN the .tpf file and Edit
>             building.But I can directly open the same .bui file from
>             TRNBuild not from Simulation Studio and right-click TYPE
>             56 and select Edit Building.
>
>             I think the connection between Simualtion Studio and
>             TRNBuild is having problem after update TRNFLow.
>
>             The bug shows Unbahandelte win32- Ausnahme in
>             TRNBuild.exe(1564)
>             Mögliche Debugger:
>             Neue Instanz von Visual Studio 2005
>
>
>               PLEASE tell me how to solve with it?
>
>               I'm extremely worried!
>
>
>               1.  Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART in
>             HEATING option? If the heating are Radiator and Convector,
>             how to define this RADIATIVE PART? What's percent to set?
>             0 or other?
>                 2.  I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C from
>             8 am to 6 pm, other time is 18 C in the test room . I used
>             the HEATING to realize it, but the heating is ideal
>             heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal heating?
>               The result is the indoor temperature can get to the set
>             point at once and no time delay, so I cann't get the
>             THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the test room. But my professor
>             let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of using TRNSYS to
>             calculate the time constant and actual measurement test
>             room result of time constant. Please tell me how to get
>             the thermal time constant of the test room using TRNSYS?
>             Or how to explain to my professor the ideal heating?
>
>
>             2011/2/18 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com
>             <mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>>
>
>                 Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>
>                 Please tell me: All the program is OK, but after I
>                 update the TRNFlow,  I want to RUN or EDIT Building,
>                 it appears at once Visual Studio Debugger Window! I
>                 cann't RUN the .tpf file and Edit building.
>
>                 IT shows Unbahandelte win32- Ausnahme in
>                 TRNBuild.exe(1564)
>                 Mögliche Debugger:
>                 Neue Instanz von Visual Studio 2005
>
>                   PLEASE tell me how to solve with it?
>
>                   I'm extremely worried!
>
>
>
>                   1.  Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART
>                 in HEATING option? If the heating are Radiator and
>                 Convector, how to define this RADIATIVE PART? What's
>                 percent to set? 0 or other?
>                     2.  I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C
>                 from 8 am to 6 pm, other time is 18 C in the test
>                 room . I used the HEATING to realize it, but the
>                 heating is ideal heating. Please tell me what's the
>                 meaning of ideal heating?
>                   The result is the indoor temperature can get to the
>                 set point at once and no time delay, so I cann't get
>                 the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the test room. But my
>                 professor let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of
>                 using TRNSYS to calculate the time constant and actual
>                 measurement test room result of time constant. Please
>                 tell me how to get the thermal time constant of the
>                 test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my
>                 professor the ideal heating?
>
>
>
>
>
>                   Many thanks!
>
>                  Br.
>
>                 wang
>
>
>                 2011/2/18 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com
>                 <mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>>
>
>                     Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>
>                     Please tell me: All the program is OK, but after I
>                     update the TRNFlow,  I want to RUN or EDIT
>                     Building, it appears at once Visual Studio
>                     Debugger Window! I cann't RUN the .tpf file and
>                     Edit building.
>
>                       PLEASE tell me how to solve with it?
>
>                       I'm extremely worried!
>
>
>
>                       1.  Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE
>                     PART in HEATING option? If the heating are
>                     Radiator and Convector, how to define this
>                     RADIATIVE PART? What's percent to set? 0 or other?
>                         2.  I defined a set point indoor
>                     temperature:20C from 8 am to 6 pm, other time is
>                     18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING to
>                     realize it, but the heating is ideal heating.
>                     Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal heating?
>                       The result is the indoor temperature can get to
>                     the set point at once and no time delay, so I
>                     cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the test
>                     room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS to verify
>                     the result of using TRNSYS to calculate the time
>                     constant and actual measurement test room result
>                     of time constant. Please tell me how to get the
>                     thermal time constant of the test room using
>                     TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the
>                     ideal heating?
>
>
>
>
>
>                       Many thanks!
>
>                      Br.
>
>                     wang
>
>                     2011/2/17 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com
>                     <mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>>
>
>                         Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>                          thanks!
>                         1.  Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE
>                         PART in HEATING option? If the heating are
>                         Radiator and Convector, how to define this
>                         RADIATIVE PART? What's percent to set? 0 or
>                         other?
>                             2.  I defined a set point indoor
>                         temperature:20C from 8 am to 6 pm, other time
>                         is 18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING
>                         to realize it, but the heating is ideal
>                         heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of
>                         ideal heating?
>                           The result is the indoor temperature can get
>                         to the set point at once and no time delay, so
>                         I cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the
>                         test room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS
>                         to verify the result of using TRNSYS to
>                         calculate the time constant and actual
>                         measurement test room result of time constant.
>                         Please tell me how to get the thermal time
>                         constant of the test room using TRNSYS? Or how
>                         to explain to my professor the ideal heating?
>                         Many thanks!
>                         br.
>                         wang
>
>
>                         2011/2/15 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com
>                         <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>>
>
>                             Dear Mr. Wang,
>                             2. Indeed in this program has no TRNFLOW,
>                             Do you mean the infiltration only includes
>                             the amount of air entering the room at
>                             TAMB condition?
>
>                             right
>
>                             Did you see the last email's ATTACHEDs?
>                             But I got the result of QINF which are the
>                             same when the infiltration is on or off. I
>                             think TNRSYS's results are questionable.
>                             Why I turn off the infiltration, is there
>                             still having QINF?
>                             If you are using TRNFLOW then these
>                             definitions replace the definitions in the
>                             ZONE regime data like INFILTRATION,
>                             VENTILATION and COUPLING
>
>
>                             And  when the walls are massless or
>                             massive, the result of  QINF which are the
>                             same, it's 190.73 kJ all the time not only
>                             turning on the infiltration but also
>                             turning off it; not only massless but also
>                             massive.
>                             You have defined wind influence and so
>                             even if the windows are closed you get a
>                             certain infiltration
>
>                             Best regards
>
>                             Christian Frenzel
>
>                             TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>
>                             hotline at transsolar.com
>                             <mailto:hotline at transsolar.com>
>
>                             www.trnsys.de <http://www.trnsys.de/>
>
>                             Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien
>                             für energieeffizientes Bauen und
>                             Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>
>                             Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH,
>                             Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart /
>                             Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 /
>                             UsSt.-Id: DE152272639
>
>                             Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias
>                             Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer, Dipl.Phys.
>                             Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TRNSYS-users mailing list
> TRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.edu
> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users

-- 
***************************
David BRADLEY
Principal
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
Madison, WI  53703 USA

P:+1.608.274.2577
F:+1.608.278.1475
d.bradley at tess-inc.com

http://www.tess-inc.com
http://www.trnsys.com

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