[TRNSYS-users] Error in solar radiation distribution (sumsitot) and type 56

Tue Jun 21 04:49:18 PDT 2011

Dear Marion 

Thanks for your swift reply. I have got the point and will do that.

Your effort is highly appreciated.

Regards

  _____  

From: Marion Hiller [mailto:hiller at transsolar.com] 
Sent: 21 June 2011 12:44
To: mahdishahrestani
Subject: AW: RE: [TRNSYS-users] Error in solar radiation distribution
(sumsitot) and type 56

Dear Mehdi, 

Well, you should use in fact this equation: 

IB_N_180_90 = [109,37]*GT([109,36],1) 

Because you want to set all radiation data to 0 if the total radiation
[109,36] is less than 1 kJ/hr and not the beam radiation [109,37]. 

To be honest, I assume you don’t need this for the beam radiation at all,
because if the total radiation is very very low you don’t have beam
radiation only diffuse. 

However, it’s consistent and better to understand if you use the equation. 

Best, 

Marion 

Dipl.-Ing. Marion Hiller 
TRANSSOLAR: KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen und
Nutzerkomfort in Gebäude 
Munich - New York - Stuttgart + 49.711.67976.0 

Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart 
Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347, Steuernummer 99073/00911, USt-IdNr.:
DE152272639 

Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer,
Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Dipl.-Ing. Bleicher  

  _____  

Von: Mehdi Shahrestani [mailto:mahdishahrestani at yahoo.com] 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011 13:32
An: Marion Hiller
Betreff: RE: [TRNSYS-users] Error in solar radiation distribution (sumsitot)
and type 56 

Dear Marion 

Many thanks for your reply. It is highly appreciated. 

Just for double checking could you please confirm the second line of
modification? 

Your second modification: 

IB_N_180_90 = [109,37]*GT([109,36],1) 

Is it correct or it should be: 

IB_N_180_90 = [109,37]*GT([109,37],1) 

I am waiting for your kind reply 

Many thanks again 

Mehdi 

  _____  

From: Marion Hiller [mailto:hiller at transsolar.com] 
Sent: 21 June 2011 11:17
To: mahdishahrestani; trnsys-users
Subject: AW: [TRNSYS-users] Error in solar radiation distribution (sumsitot)
and type 56 

Dear Mehdi, 

thanks for resending your simplified files! 

The error is due to very low radiation data on the north façade of your
model from Type 109 of 0.02 KJ/hr m². 

Type 56 does a radiation distribution for this very low value which yields
to a total distribution error of radiation entering all windows of 3.63
KJ/hr for your 3 floor window. 

The 2floor model runs fine because there are less windows leading to an
error smaller than 3.6 kJ/hr. 

As a quick fix I suggest to set radiation input to Type 56 lower than 1
KJ/hr m² to 0 by the following 

IT_N_180_90 = [109,36]*GT([109,36],1) 

IB_N_180_90 = [109,37]*GT([109,36],1) 

In addition, I put it on my list for Type56 improvements. 

Best regards, 

Marion 

Dipl.-Ing. Marion Hiller 
TRANSSOLAR: KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen und
Nutzerkomfort in Gebäude 
Munich - New York - Stuttgart + 49.711.67976.0 

Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart 
Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347, Steuernummer 99073/00911, USt-IdNr.:
DE152272639 

Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer,
Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Dipl.-Ing. Bleicher  

  _____  

Von: Mehdi Shahrestani [mailto:mahdishahrestani at yahoo.com] 
Gesendet: Montag, 20. Juni 2011 00:27
An: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
Betreff: [TRNSYS-users] Error in solar radiation distribution (sumsitot) and
type 56 

Dear TRNSYS team and users 

It is around 10 days that I have got stuck in simulation of a building.
After many things that I have already checked, it seems that there is a bug
in Trnsys. 

Here, I am going to raise the issue in detail hoping to get some response
from users and Trnsys bodies. 

Project: 

Modelling of a building with 3 floors without considering system (just using
type 56) 

Each floor has 20 zones and the plans of all 3 floors are the same. 

Followed process: 

In the first round the building was drawn in Trnsys3d-SketchUp and imported
into the Trnsys. After importing the *.idf file, a *.tpf file was
automatically generated and was working very well. The problem came up when
I needed to reduce simulation time step from 1 hr to 0.2 hr. (for controller
settings in the next steps of my project) 

Any way, a simple type 56 for a building with 3 floors, each floor 20 zone
was not working with 0.2hr simulation time step. 

 The error is: 

“Internal error in solar radiation distribution (sumsitot) of    56.388 % at
time    56.40wave length band no.3 1:total solar, 2:visual solar, 3:non
visual solar” 

I was checking every thing but nothing was wrong. Finally, I sent an Email
for users and asked for help. Christian from TRANSSOLAR and Matt from TESS
kindly replied. Matt suggested me to follow the Christian advice and
Christian wrote: 

“One reason for this can be that in your 3DModel you have infinitesimal
small surfaces. Please check if this is the case and if so you'll have to
redraw the geometry“ 

Then, I checked every little part of the 3D model in Sketchup and also
imported model in studio but there was not such evidence. 

Even though I was quite sure that there is no such a little surface I redraw
the entire model several times (at least 10 times) precisely but the result
was the same and after importing the *.idf file into studio exactly at 56.4
hr the error comes up every time. 

In the next try I decided to draw and import building floor by floor. After
drawing the first floor, it was imported to the studio. Generated *.tpf file
including Type 56 ran with 0.2 hr simulation time step. The result was
perfect, and I decided to check the building with 2 floors. To make the
drawing I used the drawing of the first floor (previously drawn) and copy it
on the top of the first floor as second floor and then import the related
*.idf file into studio. Type 56 of the building with two floors was working
in 0.2 hr time step perfectly without error. Then, I repeat the process and
copy the drawing of the second floor and paste it as third floor in
Sketchup. After importing the *.idf  of the building with 3 floors, type 56
was only able to run in simulation time step 1.0 hr. when I was reducing
time step to 0.5 or 0.2 the previous error came up. 

All in all, this approach proved that there Christian’s expectation was not
correct because if it was correct I could not run the related type 56 for
the first floor and second floor without error as well.( third floor was
copy and paste of second floor) 

Even though it was quite clear that there is no any small surface (Christian
expectation) I was thinking maybe there is some problem about connection
between Sketchup and studio. Therefore, I decided to insert entire building
manually in type 56. The result of manual filling type 56 was 100% similar
to the importing building from Sketchup. That means, first floor and second
floor was running perfectly in different simulation time step (0.2 hr , 0.5
hr and 1 hr) but just when I added the third floor, type 56 came into the
same error (mentioned above) at the same time (56.4 hr). 

By following these two approaches I have got sure that the error is not
because of small and unattended surface (Christian expectation) and also is
not because of importing *idf file from Sketchup. 

This error has also detected by other users Xavier
<http://sel.me.wisc.edu/trnsys/mailinglist/archive2004/msg00654.html>
(2004) which Michaël Kummert was replied and accepted the bug in version 15.

My expectation: 

1-     There are limits on number of zone for each type 56. 

2-     Weather component (type 109) is not able to deal with some time
steps. 

3-     There is a bug in type 56 to run model with time steps less than 1.0
hr. 

4-     There is a bug for solar radiation distribution within type 56. 

For further detail following files are attached: 

1-     Folder 1 including related files of building with two floors
developed in Sketchup and imported into Trnsys which works fine in different
time steps (*.idf, *.tpf, *.dck and *.b17 files) 

2-      Folder 2 including related files of building with three floors
developed in Sketchup and imported into Trnsys which is not working in time
steps less than 1.0 hr  (*.idf, *.tpf, *.dck and *.b17 files) 

Hereby, I was wondering if anybody could help me. I am not a freelance
researcher; I am a PhD student with dispread need on doing simulation. I
hope you consider user situation with your kind responses. 

Sorry about the long story and thanks for your time 

Regards 

Mehdi Shahrestani 

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