[TRNSYS-users] questions about TRNFLOW 's TEST DATA

王洋 wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com
Mon Feb 28 13:36:54 PST 2011 

Dear all,

 I have some questions about TRNFLOW 's TEST DATA:



To "test data" :  :

1. I defined "test data", I defined initial CO2% as 1000 ppm(0.00164 kg/kg)
in the test room in TRNFlow, and I defined the ambient CO2% as 400
ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg). But after running, the ambient CO2% as 400
ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg) doesn't work, the indoor CO2% reduce beyond 400
ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg) and up to 6.00E-10kg/kg, i think the air flow rate in
test data works all the time, the ambient CO2% as 400 ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg)
doesn't work.
So I defined an Equation in simulation studio: when CONZ(the indoor CO2%
)<0.00065726, air flow factor is 0. What's the meaning of air flow factor?
 I think the above problem's reason is air flow factor(1) works all the
time. Is my thought right or not? Please see the ATTACHED 1st and 2nd.
Please have a look at my programs whether are they right or not? If not
please correct them. thanks!



But after running, I found CO2% reducing rate of the curve is very faster
than my actual measurement in the test room. Please see the ATTACTED 3rd and
4th. To 3rd you can see only about 2 hours the CO2% got to 400
ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg), but to 4th the actual measurement curve in the test
room: it needs about 10 hours to get to 400 ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg). Please
explain it, why the difference is so bigger? Or please see the ATTACHED 1st
and 2nd to verify the CO2% reducing curve in TRNFlow with ATTACTED 4th the
actual measurement curve.

2. Please tell me how to get the CO2% data etc. of TRNFlow output after
running?

Many thanks!

Br.

wang


2011/2/24 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com>

 Dear Mr Wang,
>
> it is not working to use CO2 concentrations if you turn off TRNFLOW.
> So you will have to use TRNFLOW and if you want to define a fixed
> infiltration rate, then you could use the link type "test data" and so
> define the 0.52xx ACH.
>
> Best regards
> Christian Frenzel
>
>
>
> TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>
> hotline at transsolar.com
>
>
>
> www.trnsys.de
>
> Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen und
> Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>
> Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart /
> Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639
>
> Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer,
> Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>    *Von:* 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com]
> *Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 23. Februar 2011 10:48
> *An:* hotline
> *Betreff:* Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions about
> TRNSYS
>
>   Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>
>       Thanks!
>
>       In the TRNFlow manual: there it is explained that "As soon as TRNFLOW
> is turned on, (...) in the simulation the defined infiltrations,
> ventilations and couplings will be replaced with the calculated air flows."
>          The fact is that I defined initial CO2% as 1000 ppm(0.00164 kg/kg)
> in the test room in TRNFlow, and I defined the ambient CO2% as 380
> ppm(0.0005819 kg/kg). Meanwhile,  I defined the infiltration rate as 0.5276
> 1/h in TRNBUILD.  I want to compare the CO2% reducing curve in the test room
> based on the infiltration rate  0.5276 1/h of actual measurement value with
> by TRNSYS simulation. But when I used TRNFLOW, the defined infiltration rate
> as 0.5276 1/h in TRNBUILD was replaced maybe.  1000 ppm in the test room
> keeps constant. Please see the ATTACHED.
>
>     Please explain this! Or tell me how to define in TRNSYS/TRNFlow in
> order to compare the test room infiltration rate of actual measurement value
> with by TRNSYS/TRNFlow simulation? I want to observe CO2%'s reducing curve
> when infiltration rate is 0.5276 1/h (I measured the value in the test room)
> using TRNSYS/TRNFlow, to observe the  CO2%'s reducing curve whether is the
> same as the actual measuring CO2%'s reducing curve or not?
>
>    Many thanks!
>
>   Br.
>
> wang
>
>
> 2011/2/22 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com>
>
>>  Dear Mr Wang,
>>  1) unfortunately I have no advice to this
>> 2) The steps of the air temperature are resulting from the WALL TRANSFER
>> FUNCTION CALCULATION. You are using a very small timestep of the simulation
>> the wall transfer function is updated only every hour (that's the timebase).
>> This is why you are getting these steps. So you would have to decrease the
>> TIMEBASE by reducing the walls thickness.
>> 3) Please have a look at the energy balance for a zone. You'll find these
>> information in the MultizoneBuilding Manual on page 43 chapter Balance 4
>>  Best regards
>> Christian Frenzel
>>
>> TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>>
>> hotline at transsolar.com
>>
>> www.trnsys.de
>>
>> Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen
>> und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>>
>> Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart /
>> Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639
>>
>> Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer,
>> Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>       *Von:* 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com]
>> *Gesendet:* Montag, 21. Februar 2011 11:12
>> *An:* hotline
>> *Betreff:* Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions about
>> TRNSYS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>>
>>  Many thanks!
>>
>>  After I installed both of them once again, it's OK.
>>
>> 1. To radiative part: The test room has 2 heatings: one is radiator, its
>> power is 578 W, another is convector, its power is 540 W. How can I define
>> this situation's radiative part? As you said can I think both of them have
>> only convective part? So I define the radiative part is 0 or not? As you
>> know, it is very difficult to make sure what's the convective and radiative
>> part of this test room situation. But my professor let me figure it out, so
>> can I define the radiative part as 0? Or do you have some experience about
>> this radiative part defining?
>>
>> 2. To thermal time constant: Thermal time constants are a feature of the lumped
>> system analysis <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumped_system_analysis>(lumped capacity analysis method) for thermal systems, used when objects
>> cool or warm uniformly under the influence of convective cooling or warming.
>> In this case, the heat transfer from the body to the ambient at a given time
>> is proportional to the temperature difference between the body and the
>> ambient.
>> Physically, the constant represents the time it takes the system's step
>> response <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step_response> to reach [image:
>> 1-1/e \approx 63.2%] of its final (asymptotic) value.
>>
>> Please see ATTACHED 1st: Tset-point is 21°C from 8 am to 6 pm, other is
>> 20°C, Thermal time constant of this test room is the time that Tindoor air
>> gets to the 20°C +63.2%(21-20°C)=20.632°C. But this is at the situation of
>> floor heating. I want to simulate the situation when using Radiator and
>> Convector.
>> Please see ATTACHED 2nd: The result is very strange. T indoor air which
>> rises from lower temperature to higher appeares 3 jumps, this is very
>> strange, because I closed all the windows and turned off TRNFLOW, only
>> defined the infiltration in order to simulate the actual situation of the
>> test room. But, meanwhile, QHeat is keeping constant.
>> Please see the .tpf and ,bui files of ATTACHED.
>>
>> Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant of the test room using
>> TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the ideal heating?
>>
>>
>>
>>  3. To ideal heating: Where is this heating? Can I define its position?
>> How is it operating or working?
>>
>> Many thanks!
>>
>> br.
>>
>> wang
>>
>>
>> 2011/2/18 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com>
>>
>>  Dear Mr Wang,
>>>  I assume that after installing the TRNSYS 17.00.0019 version you
>>> installed the latest TRNFLOW version from the 12.1.2011 .
>>> These two versions have to be installed. If you have these two then
>>> please make sure that you have fully reading and writing rights for the
>>> TRNSYS 17 installation folder.
>>>  Every heat source has a certain radiative part and convective part,
>>> it's up to you to define these values. If you want to get further
>>> information about this please refer to common literature about heat
>>> exchange.
>>>  Ideal heating means a theoretical value that directly interacts with
>>> the energy balance of an airnode. It represents the heating that is
>>> required/available to heat up the room air temperature. The energy balance
>>> of an airnode you can find in the MultizoneBuilding manual.
>>>  If you explain me the meaning of the TIME CONSTANT and the context of
>>> what you are comparing then maybe we could have an advice.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> Christian Frenzel
>>>
>>> TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>>>
>>> hotline at transsolar.com
>>>
>>> www.trnsys.de
>>>
>>> Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen
>>> und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>>>
>>> Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart /
>>> Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639
>>>
>>> Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer,
>>> Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>>>
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------
>>>          *Von:* 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com]
>>> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 18. Februar 2011 14:16
>>> *An:* hotline
>>> *Betreff:* Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions about TRNSYS
>>>
>>>    Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>>>
>>> Please tell me: All the program is OK, but after I update the TRNFlow, I
>>> want to RUN or right-click TYPE 56 and select EDIT Building, it appears at
>>> once Visual Studio Debugger Window! I cann't RUN the .tpf file and Edit
>>> building. But I can directly open the same .bui file from TRNBuild not
>>> from Simulation Studio and right-click TYPE 56 and select Edit Building.
>>>
>>> I think the connection between Simualtion Studio and TRNBuild is having
>>> problem after update TRNFLow.
>>>
>>> The bug shows Unbahandelte win32- Ausnahme in TRNBuild.exe(1564)
>>> Mögliche Debugger:
>>> Neue Instanz von Visual Studio 2005
>>>
>>>   PLEASE tell me how to solve with it?
>>>
>>>   I'm extremely worried!
>>>
>>>
>>>   1.  Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART in HEATING option?
>>> If the heating are Radiator and Convector, how to define this RADIATIVE
>>> PART? What's percent to set? 0 or other?
>>>      2.  I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C from 8 am to 6 pm,
>>> other time is 18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING to realize it, but
>>> the heating is ideal heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal
>>> heating?
>>>    The result is the indoor temperature can get to the set point at once
>>> and no time delay, so I cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the test
>>> room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of using
>>> TRNSYS to calculate the time constant and actual measurement test room
>>> result of time constant. Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant
>>> of the test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the ideal
>>> heating?
>>>
>>>
>>> 2011/2/18 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>> Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>>>>
>>>> Please tell me: All the program is OK, but after I update the TRNFlow,
>>>> I want to RUN or EDIT Building, it appears at once Visual Studio Debugger
>>>> Window! I cann't RUN the .tpf file and Edit building.
>>>>
>>>> IT shows Unbahandelte win32- Ausnahme in TRNBuild.exe(1564)
>>>> Mögliche Debugger:
>>>> Neue Instanz von Visual Studio 2005
>>>>
>>>>   PLEASE tell me how to solve with it?
>>>>
>>>>   I'm extremely worried!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   1.  Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART in HEATING option?
>>>> If the heating are Radiator and Convector, how to define this RADIATIVE
>>>> PART? What's percent to set? 0 or other?
>>>>      2.  I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C from 8 am to 6
>>>> pm, other time is 18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING to realize it,
>>>> but the heating is ideal heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal
>>>> heating?
>>>>    The result is the indoor temperature can get to the set point at
>>>> once and no time delay, so I cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the
>>>> test room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of using
>>>> TRNSYS to calculate the time constant and actual measurement test room
>>>> result of time constant. Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant
>>>> of the test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the ideal
>>>> heating?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Many thanks!
>>>>
>>>>  Br.
>>>>
>>>> wang
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2011/2/18 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>>>>>
>>>>> Please tell me: All the program is OK, but after I update the TRNFlow,
>>>>> I want to RUN or EDIT Building, it appears at once Visual Studio Debugger
>>>>> Window! I cann't RUN the .tpf file and Edit building.
>>>>>
>>>>>   PLEASE tell me how to solve with it?
>>>>>
>>>>>   I'm extremely worried!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   1.  Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART in HEATING
>>>>> option? If the heating are Radiator and Convector, how to define this
>>>>> RADIATIVE PART? What's percent to set? 0 or other?
>>>>>      2.  I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C from 8 am to 6
>>>>> pm, other time is 18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING to realize it,
>>>>> but the heating is ideal heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal
>>>>> heating?
>>>>>    The result is the indoor temperature can get to the set point at
>>>>> once and no time delay, so I cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the
>>>>> test room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of using
>>>>> TRNSYS to calculate the time constant and actual measurement test room
>>>>> result of time constant. Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant
>>>>> of the test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the ideal
>>>>> heating?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Many thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>>  Br.
>>>>>
>>>>> wang
>>>>>
>>>>> 2011/2/17 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Dear Mr. Frenzel,
>>>>>>   thanks!
>>>>>>  1.  Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART in HEATING
>>>>>> option? If the heating are Radiator and Convector, how to define this
>>>>>> RADIATIVE PART? What's percent to set? 0 or other?
>>>>>>      2.  I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C from 8 am to 6
>>>>>> pm, other time is 18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING to realize it,
>>>>>> but the heating is ideal heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal
>>>>>> heating?
>>>>>>    The result is the indoor temperature can get to the set point at
>>>>>> once and no time delay, so I cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the
>>>>>> test room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of using
>>>>>> TRNSYS to calculate the time constant and actual measurement test room
>>>>>> result of time constant. Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant
>>>>>> of the test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the ideal
>>>>>> heating?
>>>>>>  Many thanks!
>>>>>>  br.
>>>>>>  wang
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2011/2/15 hotline <hotline at transsolar.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Dear Mr. Wang,
>>>>>>>  2. Indeed in this program has no TRNFLOW, Do you mean the
>>>>>>> infiltration only includes the amount of air entering the room at TAMB
>>>>>>> condition?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did you see the last email's ATTACHEDs? But I got the result of QINF
>>>>>>> which are the same when the infiltration is on or off. I think TNRSYS's
>>>>>>> results are questionable. Why I turn off the infiltration, is there still
>>>>>>> having QINF?
>>>>>>>  If you are using TRNFLOW then these definitions replace the
>>>>>>> definitions in the ZONE regime data like INFILTRATION, VENTILATION and
>>>>>>> COUPLING
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And  when the walls are massless or massive, the result of  QINF
>>>>>>> which are the same, it's 190.73 kJ all the time not only turning on the
>>>>>>> infiltration but also turning off it; not only massless but also massive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  You have defined wind influence and so even if the windows are
>>>>>>> closed you get a certain infiltration
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Christian Frenzel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TRANSSOLAR Software Team
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> hotline at transsolar.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> www.trnsys.de
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes
>>>>>>> Bauen und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart /
>>>>>>> Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer,
>>>>>>> Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
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