[TRNSYS-users] ideal heating position in TRNBUILD
Kersken, Matthias
Matthias.Kersken at ibp.fraunhofer.de
Thu Feb 24 23:49:59 PST 2011
Dear Wang!
If You do not use 3D then there is no geometry and so there is no position.
Concerning ideal heating: The convective part is added to the zone air node and the radiative part is added to the radiation star node, interacting with the surfaces (manual 5.4.1.6).
To observe it's behaviour You might use the balance-outputs (5.2.3.5).
With kind regards,
Matthias Kersken
---
Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken
Wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter / Abteilung Energiesysteme
Fraunhofer-Institut für Bauphysik
Institutsteil Holzkirchen
Fraunhoferstraße 10
83626 Valley
eMail: Matthias.Kersken at ibp.fraunhofer.de
Telefon 08024 / 643-204
Telefax 08024 / 643-366
www.ibp.fraunhofer.de <http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/>
Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken
Research Associate / Department Energy Systems
Fraunhofer Institute for Building Physics
Branch Holzkirchen
Fraunhoferstraße 10
D-83626 Valley
eMail: <mailto:Matthias.Kersken at ibp.fraunhofer.de> Matthias.Kersken at ibp.fraunhofer.de
Phone +49 8024 / 643-204
Fax +49 8024 / 643-366
<http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/> www.ibp.fraunhofer.de
---
_____
Von: 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Februar 2011 16:38
An: Kersken, Matthias
Cc: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
Betreff: Re: [TRNSYS-users] ideal heating position in TRNBUILD
Dear Mr. Kersken,
Do you mean I need use TRNSYS-3D to define?
If not using TRNSYS-3D, I cann't define its position?
My question is if not using 3D, To ideal heating in TRNBUILD: Where is this heating? If it has no position, then How is the ideal heating operating or working? How to observe its operating or working way etc.?
Because although I used TRNSYS 17, but I never used TRNSYS 3D, i'm not familiar with it.
Thanks!
br
wang
2011/2/24 Kersken, Matthias <Matthias.Kersken at ibp.fraunhofer.de>
Dear Wang!
This is only possible if You use TRNSYS 17.
You can not use the ideal heating directly.
*
Define a GeoPosition Geometry using the xyz-Cube Icon.
*
Define a "other Gain" with the correct radiative ratio and it's power as input
*
Calculate the power of the gain using an iterative feedback controller (Type22) in the SimulationStudio;
Inputs are the desired and the actual zone temperature and the output is the required heating power connected to the gain-input of Type56.
That should do the job of "simulating" an ideal heating at a specific position.
With kind regards,
Matthias Kersken
---
Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken
Wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter / Abteilung Energiesysteme
Fraunhofer-Institut für Bauphysik
Institutsteil Holzkirchen
Fraunhoferstraße 10
83626 Valley
eMail: Matthias.Kersken at ibp.fraunhofer.de
Telefon 08024 / 643-204
Telefax 08024 / 643-366
www.ibp.fraunhofer.de <http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/>
Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken
Research Associate / Department Energy Systems
Fraunhofer Institute for Building Physics
Branch Holzkirchen
Fraunhoferstraße 10
D-83626 Valley
eMail: <mailto:Matthias.Kersken at ibp.fraunhofer.de> Matthias.Kersken at ibp.fraunhofer.de
Phone +49 8024 / 643-204
Fax +49 8024 / 643-366
<http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/> www.ibp.fraunhofer.de
---
_____
Von: 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Februar 2011 15:48
An: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
Betreff: [TRNSYS-users] ideal heating position in TRNBUILD
Dear all,
To ideal heating in TRNBUILD: Where is this heating? Can I define its position? If so, how to define its position? How is the ideal heating operating or working?
thanks !
br.
wy
在 2011年2月24日 下午3:24， <trnsys-users-request at cae.wisc.edu>写道：
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Problems with calling EES (Type66a) (Doms Joris)
2. Re: RADIATIVE PART of Heating (??)
---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
From: Doms Joris <joris.doms at vito.be>
To: David BRADLEY <d.bradley at tess-inc.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 15:17:49 +0100
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Problems with calling EES (Type66a)
David,
Thank you for the reply. The EES project was defenately openening and closing, but EES itself stayed open. I fixed this problem now with changing the pad for the EES project from
"c:\xxx\xxx\hydraulics\EES.ees" to "\hydrolics\EES.ees".
But now it seems that EES-TRNSYS coupling has a limited number of outputs, is this correct? When I run a long simulation with alot of timesteps, the simulation stops after a while, I think it is after 66000 timesteps with 20 inputs and 40 outputs with the EES-TRNSYS coupling. Is there a solution for this?
Using another type is no option as I need to make calcultation with EES at every timestep.
Many thanks
Joris Doms
_____
Van: David BRADLEY [d.bradley at tess-inc.com]
Verzonden: dinsdag 22 februari 2011 23:40
Aan: Doms Joris
CC: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
Onderwerp: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Problems with calling EES (Type66a)
Joris,
It isn't actually the opening and closing that takes time (EES stays running the whole time). The slowness is the EES calculation time and the fact that EES is called at every single timestep and at every single iteration within a timestep of your TRNSYS simulation. There are a few different versions of Type66 that allow you to avoid calling EES whenever possible (basically an input that is an on/off switch for the EES calculations). If you know that your EES program doesn't have to be called (because the device that it models is inactive) then you can "turn off" the call to Type66 and save some time. Take a look at the EES example in the ..\TrnsysXX\Examples\Calling_EES\ directory; all the different options are shown in there.
Kind regards,
David
On 2/20/2011 15:43, Doms Joris wrote:
Dear TRNSYS users,
When simulating an applied thermal system, I'm using EES for the hydronic part. I programmed the hydronic circuit in EES and coupled it with TRNSYS via Type 66a. This coupling works fine, but;
The problem is that the simulation runs very slow. Every timestep that TRNSYS calls EES, the EES project is opened and closed. Is there a way to set some settings so EES isen't closed and reopened each time, this would minimize the solution time alot.
Thanks on advance
Joris Doms
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***************************
David BRADLEY
Principal
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
Madison, WI 53703 USA
P:+1.608.274.2577
F:+1.608.278.1475
d.bradley at tess-inc.com
http://www.tess-inc.com <http://www.tess-inc.com/>
http://www.trnsys.com <http://www.trnsys.com/>
_____
This e-mail, any attachments and the information it contains are confidential and meant only for the use of the addressee(s) only. Access to this e-mail by anyone other than the addressee(s) is unauthorized. If you are not the intended addressee (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not use, copy, distribute or deliver to anyone this message (or any part of its contents) or take any action in reliance on it. In such case, you should destroy this message and notify the sender immediately. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail or telephone and delete the e-mail from any computer.
All reasonable precautions have been taken to ensure no viruses are present in this e-mail and its attachments. As our company cannot accept responsibility for any loss or damage arising from the use of this e-mail or attachments we recommend that you subject these to your virus checking procedures prior to use.
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---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
From: 王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>
To: duffy at tess-inc.com
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 15:24:08 +0100
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] RADIATIVE PART of Heating
Dear Mr. Duffy,
Many thanks for your reply!
I’m so sorry for sending multiple identical emails to the TRNSYS users mailing list. Because I'm very anxious not to get those answers, that's some tasks my professor gave me, I must finish them these days. So I still have no other way to do with them after asking other guys, then I sent multiple identical emails to the TRNSYS users mailing list.
sorry again!
Br.
wang
2011/2/23 Matt Duffy <duffy at tess-inc.com>
Dear Wang,
The following document has information about radiator/convector.
ASHRAE, 2004 ASHRAE Handbook: HVAC Systems and Equipment, ASHRAE, Atlanta
Perhaps a basic heat transfer text, such as Incropera and Dewitt, may have information as well.
Best regards,
Matt Duffy
----- Original Message -----
From: "王洋" <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, February 23, 2011 15:22
Subject: [TRNSYS-users] RADIATIVE PART of Heating
Dear all,
I want to make sure the exact value about RADIATIVE PART in the TRNBUILD Heating option. e.g. What's the exact RADIATIVE PART or Convection Part value of the wall heating and radiator and convector?
Or Please introduce me some TRNSYS references and literature about RADIATIVE PART or Convection Part value of the wall heating and radiator and convector etc.
Please introduce me some best English books about the heating(radiator, convector, Wandheizung and floor heating) operating or working fundamentals etc., walls' thermal energy storage and materials' pyhsics property etc., the infiltration and ventilation etc. and our this research topic's literatures we must read.
many thanks!
Br.
wang
在 2011年2月23日 上午11:01，王洋 <wanghongyang1767 at gmail.com>写道：
Dear all,
I want to make sure the exact value about RADIATIVE PART in the TRNBUILD Heating option. e.g. What's the exact RADIATIVE PART or Convection Part value of the wall heating and radiator and convector?
Or Please introduce me some TRNSYS references and literature about RADIATIVE PART or Convection Part value of the wall heating and radiator and convector etc.
Please introduce me some best English books about the heating(radiator, convector, Wandheizung and floor heating) operating or working fundamentals etc., walls' thermal energy storage and materials' pyhsics property etc., the infiltration and ventilation etc. and our this research topic's literatures we must read.
many thanks!
Br.
wang
2011/2/23 <trnsys-users-request at cae.wisc.edu>
Send TRNSYS-users mailing list submissions to
trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TRNSYS-users digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Problems with calling EES (Type66a) (David BRADLEY)
2. Re: Type66 EES and TRNSYS (David BRADLEY)
3. Re: acceptable temperature range (Fred Betz)
---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
From: David BRADLEY <d.bradley at tess-inc.com>
To: Doms Joris <joris.doms at vito.be>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 16:40:04 -0600
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Problems with calling EES (Type66a)
Joris,
It isn't actually the opening and closing that takes time (EES stays running the whole time). The slowness is the EES calculation time and the fact that EES is called at every single timestep and at every single iteration within a timestep of your TRNSYS simulation. There are a few different versions of Type66 that allow you to avoid calling EES whenever possible (basically an input that is an on/off switch for the EES calculations). If you know that your EES program doesn't have to be called (because the device that it models is inactive) then you can "turn off" the call to Type66 and save some time. Take a look at the EES example in the ..\TrnsysXX\Examples\Calling_EES\ directory; all the different options are shown in there.
Kind regards,
David
On 2/20/2011 15:43, Doms Joris wrote:
Dear TRNSYS users,
When simulating an applied thermal system, I'm using EES for the hydronic part. I programmed the hydronic circuit in EES and coupled it with TRNSYS via Type 66a. This coupling works fine, but;
The problem is that the simulation runs very slow. Every timestep that TRNSYS calls EES, the EES project is opened and closed. Is there a way to set some settings so EES isen't closed and reopened each time, this would minimize the solution time alot.
Thanks on advance
Joris Doms
_____
This e-mail, any attachments and the information it contains are confidential and meant only for the use of the addressee(s) only. Access to this e-mail by anyone other than the addressee(s) is unauthorized. If you are not the intended addressee (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not use, copy, distribute or deliver to anyone this message (or any part of its contents) or take any action in reliance on it. In such case, you should destroy this message and notify the sender immediately. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail or telephone and delete the e-mail from any computer.
All reasonable precautions have been taken to ensure no viruses are present in this e-mail and its attachments. As our company cannot accept responsibility for any loss or damage arising from the use of this e-mail or attachments we recommend that you subject these to your virus checking procedures prior to use.
_____
_______________________________________________
TRNSYS-users mailing list
TRNSYS-users at cae.wisc.edu
https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
--
***************************
David BRADLEY
Principal
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
Madison, WI 53703 USA
P:+1.608.274.2577
F:+1.608.278.1475
d.bradley at tess-inc.com
http://www.tess-inc.com <http://www.tess-inc.com/>
http://www.trnsys.com <http://www.trnsys.com/>
---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
From: David BRADLEY <d.bradley at tess-inc.com>
To: Simon Binnemans <simon.binnemans at khk.be>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 16:57:40 -0600
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Type66 EES and TRNSYS
Simon,
If you would be willing to send me your TRNSYS project and EES code, I could probably debug it and find out why changing the size of szdelivertext isn't solving it. It may be that there is a limitation on the EES side of the connection as well; please don't quote me on that though until I get to look at it!
Kind regards,
David
On 2/16/2011 04:36, Simon Binnemans wrote:
Dear all,
I am currently using the Type66 object for exchanging data between TRNSYS and ees.
At first it worked very well, but when I want to receive more than 34 inputs from ees, TRNSYS alway generates an error: "Error converting clipboard data to numbers."
After searching for this problem, I found that the problem was situated in the Type66 component, which only reads the first 512 characters from the clipboard. The suggested solution was to modify the value of szdelivertext to a higher number and recompile it.(https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/pipermail/trnsys-users/2009/004540.html)
I modified the value of szdelivertext to 40 000 in stead of the standard 4000, but the result stayed the same.
Can anyone suggest a solution for this problem?
Best regards,
--
***************************
David BRADLEY
Principal
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
Madison, WI 53703 USA
P:+1.608.274.2577
F:+1.608.278.1475
d.bradley at tess-inc.com
http://www.tess-inc.com <http://www.tess-inc.com/>
http://www.trnsys.com <http://www.trnsys.com/>
---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
From: Fred Betz <fbetz at aeieng.com>
To: Shahrdad JavidRad <shahrdad at live.de>, TRNSYS USERS <trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 17:42:26 -0600
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] acceptable temperature range
You’ll probably be better off using a simple feedback controller rather than an equation block because you can get frequent starts and stops or non-convergence warnings.
Also, that’s a pretty large temperature range to operate over. Are you driving an absorption chiller with those temperatures?
You might be better off controlling a variable speed pump to maintain your temperature range rather than shutting the pump off when the temperature exceeds 80C. If you shut off the pump when the temperature is over 80C, you risk exceeding the stagnation temperature of your panels in the real world.
There is a solar thermal panel in the TESS libraries that has a built in controller that has an output for a variable speed pump that works really well.
Good luck!
Fred
Fred Betz PhD., LEED AP
Sustainable Systems Analyst
AEI | AFFILIATED ENGINEERS, INC.
5802 Research Park Blvd. | Madison, WI 53719
P: 608.236.1175 | F: 608.238.2614
<mailto:fbetz at aeieng.com> fbetz at aeieng.com | <http://www.aeieng.com/> www.aeieng.com
From: Shahrdad JavidRad [mailto:shahrdad at live.de]
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 12:11 PM
To: TRNSYS USERS
Subject: [TRNSYS-users] acceptable temperature range
Hello,
in my solar thermal system I want to define an acceptable interval for the collector outlet temperature [65-80°C] by giving an output signal=1 for the pump in the collector loop. For any other temperatures out of this range the signal should be=0
For this purpose I am using an Equation block!! (Is there any controller, that is able to do it?)
I have defined these variables as:
T_min=65
T_max=80
T_out= collector outlet temperature
Signal=AND(GT(T_out,T_min),LT(T_out,T_max))*1+(1-AND(GT(T_out,T_min),LT(T_out,T_max)))*0
I have plotted the signal. It works fine but I am experiencing a very long simulation time. More than 15 minutes just for a week.
Is there any idea?
Thanks,
Shahrdad
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