[TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based onoperativetemperature

Fri Feb 19 03:18:51 PST 2010

Hello Maarten!

I always made good experiences with Type22.
In You first mail You wrote that You're limited in Your heating power, so it
would be logical if the heating power wouldn't be sufficient.
Is the heating power at maximum if You have the high differences and what
direction are this differences (to hot or to cold)?
What is Your "Threshold for non-zero output" value?

With kind regards,
    Matthias Kersken

---

Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken
Wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter / Abteilung Energiesysteme

Fraunhofer-Institut für Bauphysik 
Institutsteil Holzkirchen

Fraunhoferstraße 10
83626 Valley

eMail: Matthias.Kersken at ibp.fraunhofer.de
Telefon 08024 / 643-204
Telefax 08024 / 643-366
www.ibp.fraunhofer.de <http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/> 

Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken
Research Associate / Department Energy Systems 

Fraunhofer Institute for Building Physics 
Branch Holzkirchen

Fraunhoferstraße 10
D-83626 Valley

eMail:  <mailto:Matthias.Kersken at ibp.fraunhofer.de>
Matthias.Kersken at ibp.fraunhofer.de
Phone +49 8024 / 643-204
Fax +49 8024 / 643-366
 <http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/> www.ibp.fraunhofer.de

---

  _____  

Von: Maarten Sourbron [mailto:Maarten.Sourbron at mech.kuleuven.be] 
Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Februar 2010 11:55
An: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
Cc: Kersken, Matthias; Sabine Jansen - BK; olsen at transsolar.com; keilholz,
werner
Betreff: Re: AW: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based
onoperativetemperature

Thank you all for your answers : I checked the different solutions proposed.

With the type22 (iterative feedback controller) it seems to work but for
some reason the controller seems satisfied with a resulting temperature
lying outside the imposed tolerance (tol = 0.2K while Toperative - Tset =
0.8K sometimes).  I didn't check the controllers algorithme to find out
what's going on, though.  The controller status indicated for most of the
timesteps a value of 65 (1 + 64), which means the u-e - curve is 'too steep'
for the controller.  This might cause the problem?

With the reverse procedure suggested by mr. Olsen, it works fine, except
from the fact that the mean radiant temp used to calculate the 'corrected'
T_air, is always from the previous timestep (or am I mistaking here?).  But,
since Trad_mean doesn't change quickly, this only leeds to a minor deviation
(0.1K max).

The Top-equation suggested by mr. Keilholz is more detailed, but the PID
controller I tried quickly didn't manage to keep Top constant.  I didn't
look at it very carefully to find good controller parameters, I admit.

Thank you all!

Kind regards,

Maarten

Kersken, Matthias schreef: 

Hello Ms. Jansen and Mr. Sourbron!

I also think the solution has to be outside Type56.

If You use an iterative-feedback-controller (Type22) instead of Type2 and
feed the operative temperature in as "controlled variable", define Your
Setpoint and give the output of the controller as Gain in the thermal zone
You should be able to avoid the hysteresis-effect occoring when using Type2.
(You can also set a maximum output/heating power).

Using Type2 a bigger Deadband or a shorter timestep my also solve the
problem.

With kind regards,
    Matthias Kersken

---

Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken
Wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter / Abteilung Energiesysteme

Fraunhofer-Institut für Bauphysik 
Institutsteil Holzkirchen

Fraunhoferstraße 10
83626 Valley

eMail: Matthias.Kersken at ibp.fraunhofer.de
Telefon 08024 / 643-204
Telefax 08024 / 643-366
www.ibp.fraunhofer.de <http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/> 

Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken
Research Associate / Department Energy Systems 

Fraunhofer Institute for Building Physics 
Branch Holzkirchen

Fraunhoferstraße 10
D-83626 Valley

eMail:  <mailto:Matthias.Kersken at ibp.fraunhofer.de>
Matthias.Kersken at ibp.fraunhofer.de
Phone +49 8024 / 643-204
Fax +49 8024 / 643-366
 <http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/> www.ibp.fraunhofer.de

---

  _____  

Von: Sabine Jansen - BK [mailto:S.C.Jansen at tudelft.nl] 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 18. Februar 2010 14:51
An: Maarten Sourbron; trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
Betreff: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based
onoperativetemperature

Dear all,

I am also interensted in that question.

The only way I know now how to solve this is by using a type (controller,
type 2 or thermostat, type 8) outside type 56. The the operative zone
temperature must be connected to this type (e.g. 2b and creating a schedule
elsewhere, in an equation solver), and the heating must be defined as a
limited power connected to an input, which is then the output of the control
type (type 2 or type 8).

One problem with this approach is that I cannot use a very large heating
power anymore, since that causes the controller to switch on and off. Thus
the heating power must be determined using the ideal heating, based on air
temperature, first.

If there is an easier way, I am also very happy.

Kind regards,

Sabine Jansen

  _____  

Van: Maarten Sourbron [mailto:Maarten.Sourbron at mech.kuleuven.be]
Verzonden: do 18-2-2010 13:53
Aan: trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu
Onderwerp: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based on
operativetemperature

Dear all,

The simplified heating and cooling in Trnbuild is now comparing the zone
AIR temperature with the given set points.  Is there a way to change
this (or another controller model) to have the zone OPERATIVE
temperature compared with the set points?

Kind regards,

Maarten Sourbron

--
Departement Werktuigkunde-Department of Mechanical Engineering
Katholieke Universiteit Leuven
Celestijnenlaan 300A bus 2421
3001 Heverlee (Leuven)
T : 0032 (0)16 32 28 73
F : 0032 (0)16 32 29 85
E : Maarten.Sourbron at mech.kuleuven.be

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-- 

Departement Werktuigkunde-Department of Mechanical Engineering 

Katholieke Universiteit Leuven

Celestijnenlaan 300A bus 2421

3001 Heverlee (Leuven)

T : 0032 (0)16 32 28 73

F : 0032 (0)16 32 29 85

E : Maarten.Sourbron at mech.kuleuven.be

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