[Trace-users] Multiple Ground source Heatpump in one alternative

Thu Nov 29 07:01:38 PST 2012

It may be easier to split the building into two separate files instead of 
trying to model the effect of two separate ground loops in one model when 
the software won't allow it. You can use partitions with the adjacent 
space temperature method of Prorated to get the interactive effects of 
interior walls between spaces with different temperature set points 
without including the adjacent space in each of the models (helpful for 
where you are splitting the building). Without knowing the specifics of 
your model, that's all that I can think of at the moment.

Good luck,

Alex N. Chapin, LEED AP BD+C
Sustainability Program Engineer

SRI Quality System Registrar
300 Northpointe Circle, Suite 304
Seven Fields, PA 16046
phone: 724.934.9000 x619; fax: 724.934.9145
AChapin at sriregistrar.com

From:   "Caballero, Catalina" <ccaballero at jalrw.com>
To:     "'Sturm, Eric'" <esturm at trane.com>, "AChapin at sriregistrar.com" 
<AChapin at sriregistrar.com>, 
Cc:     "trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org" 
<trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Date:   11/29/2012 09:52 AM
Subject:        RE: [Trace-users] Multiple Ground source Heatpump in one 
alternative

Correct. That?s what happened when I tried modeling it. If you have 
additional comments or suggestions please let me know.

Catalina Caballero, AIA. Assoc., LEED GA.

Johnson, Avedano, Lopez, Rodriguez & Walewski
Engineering Group, Inc. 
2510 NW 97th Avenue, Suite 220, Miami, Florida 33172
Tel. (305) 594-0660 Ext. 217 Fax (305) 594-0907
Visit us online: www.jalrw.com

HVAC - Electrical - Plumbing - Fire Protection
Sustainable Development - Commissioning

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From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [
mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Sturm, Eric
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 9:37 AM
To: AChapin at sriregistrar.com
Cc: trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Multiple Ground source Heatpump in one 
alternative

Alex,

The interface will allow you to specify more than one ground heat 
exchanger, however the results presented for the second loop (as 
determined by the order of entry) cannot be used.  Only one may be 
simulated per alternative.  In your results from an error scan, you should 
see a fatal error associated with multiple ground loops. 

Eric Sturm
Applications Engineer
Trane Commercial Systems
Ingersoll Rand
3600 Pammel Creek Rd
La Crosse, WI 54601

Office:  +1.608.787.3736
Fax:  +1.608.787.3005
Email:  esturm at trane.com
Website:  www.trane.com

From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [
mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of 
AChapin at sriregistrar.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 3:41 PM
To: trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: [Trace-users] Multiple Ground source Heatpump in one alternative

Eric, 

I am surprised to hear you say that TRACE will not allow two separate 
ground loops in a single file because if you create multiple cooling 
plants with ground loops, you are allowed to specify different parameters 
for "TLoop Ent Bldg" under Plant Controls, Geothermal Loop. When you run 
the model, you even get different energy use results for each cooling 
plant (GSHP) when you have two identical rooms with one assigned to each 
cooling plant (since the temperature of the ground loop is different based 
on TLoop Ent Bldg). This implies that there are two separate loops, 
otherwise the one loop would have two different entering temperatures 
simultaneously. 

Catalina, does that address the question that you asked? 

Alex N. Chapin, LEED AP BD+C 
Sustainability Program Engineer 

SRI Quality System Registrar 
300 Northpointe Circle, Suite 304 
Seven Fields, PA 16046 
phone: 724.934.9000 x619; fax: 724.934.9145 
AChapin at sriregistrar.com 

Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 21:48:11 +0000
From: "Sturm, Eric" <esturm at trane.com>
To: "Caballero, Catalina" <ccaballero at jalrw.com>
Cc: "'trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org'"
                <trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] Multiple Ground source Heatpump in one
                alternative
Message-ID:
                <
B15E874B9BE11D42A67F232B539E6F9B275D48 at 012-BR1MPN1-011.mgdir.irco.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Catalina,

This is a complex scenario to model in TRACE 700 and I wanted to shed some 
light on what is possible and not possible.

The limitations you're finding are related to how system coils are 
assigned to equipment (plants), and ground heat exchangers.  TRACE 700 can 
only model a single ground heat exchanger per alternative and system coils 
(e.g. cooling and heating coils) are assigned to a plant, rather than an 
individual piece of equipment.  In your scenario, you may have one or two 
ground loops but you'll only be able to model a single loop in the 
alternative.  This limitation prevents you from modeling the systems 
independently.

If you create two ground source heat pump pieces of equipment, you'll 
still need to assign these to a single plant.  Doing so does not allow you 
to independently operate each plant based upon system coil load because 
cooling and heating coils are assigned to plants rather than equipment. 
The sequencing options will not help you in this instance.

To model this system, you'll need to make a ground source heat pump system 
as shown in the User's Manual.  You can make a single cooling plant (water 
source heat pump equipment type) and modify the energy rate and ground 
loop information as you desire.  You may wish to use a composite energy 
rate the best represents all heat pumps on the ground loop(s).

I suspect that the information you received from C.D.S. is correct in that 
you can model two separate heat pump plants, but you cannot model two 
separate ground loops in a single file.

Regards,
Eric Sturm
Applications Engineer
Trane Commercial Systems
Ingersoll Rand
3600 Pammel Creek Rd
La Crosse, WI 54601

Office:  +1.608.787.3736
Fax:  +1.608.787.3005
Email:  esturm at trane.com<mailto:esturm at trane.com>
Website:  www.trane.com

From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [
mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Caballero, 
Catalina
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 2:57 PM
To: 'trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org'
Subject: [Trace-users] Multiple Ground source Heatpump in one alternative

Good afternoon,

I'm trying to find out a way to model 2 ground source heat pumps in an 
alternative. One of these systems serves an exhibition spaces, and the 
other one serves a mechanical room. When I call CDS some representatives 
say it's possible, others don't think so, making it more confusing. 
Anybody has experience with this issue?

Regards,

Catalina Caballero, AIA. Assoc., LEED GA.
Johnson, Avedano, Lopez, Rodriguez & Walewski
Engineering Group, Inc.

2510 NW 97th Avenue, Suite 220, Miami, Florida 33172
Tel. (305) 594-0660 Ext. 217 Fax (305) 594-0907

Visit us online: www.jalrw.com<http://www.jalrw.com/>

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