[Equest-users] fire station modeling

Tue Nov 9 08:37:37 PST 2010

yes, it also says this in the user's manual.  but the user manual also 
says the scope of 90.1, in terms of residential spaces, applies just to 
spaces with four or more stories, so low-rise residential is excluded.

though i can understand where determining a space may be called 
residential comes from, appendix g table g3.1.1a, section g3.1.1, the 
user's manual, and the usgbc cir all indicate to not model such a space 
(w/the floor area/number of floors in these 2 cases) using residential 
ptacs and hw boilers.

how does one resolve a difference between a usgbc determination and the 
gbci's determination?  (without having to go thru an appeal process or 
another cir to confirm a current cir?)

On 11/9/10 9:06 AM, Cam Fitzgerald wrote:
> Patrick,
>
> If you look in Section 3.2 of 90.1-2004, the definition for
> "residential" lists fire stations as the last example of residential
> space types. Hope this helps.
>
> Cam Fitzgerald
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Patrick
> J. O'Leary, Jr.
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:51 AM
> To: equest-users; bldg-sim-subscribe at onebuilding.org
> Subject: [Equest-users] fire station modeling
>
> has anyone received a comment on eac1 requiring the use of residential
> ptac systems in the baseline building when modeling fire stations?  i
> have seen the following comments on two fire station projects recently
> with no further background material concerning the source of the
> residential determination from the reviewers than the statements below.
>
> this, to me, is not what previous usgbc cirs, 90.1 (2004 or 2007), or
> the 90.1 user's manual say.   per 90.1 and the previous usgbc cirs the
> predominant use of the building, based on sf and number of stories,
> determine what type of systems are used.  for a building less than
> 20,000 sf this is typically going to be packaged gas or heat pump units.
>
> project 1 (leed v2.2 project)
> "The Baseline system type modeled does not seem consistent with the
> system mapping from Table G.3.1.1.A. Please note the GBCI has determined
>
> that Fire Stations are considered residential for the purposes of
> completing EAc1 credit.  Please confirm that the Baseline system (and
> principle heating source) was modeled correctly, or revise the system
> type to reflect ASHRAE modeling protocol. Also, if any exceptions are
> utilized from G3.1.1 please provide a explanation for the exception."
>
> project 2 (leed v2.2 project)
> "5. Table 1.4 indicates the Baseline Primary HVAC system as a type #3,
> which does not appear to be consistent with the system mapping from
> Table G.3.1.1.A. The sleeping quarters (residential) should be modeled
> as a system type #1 and the non-residential areas as a type #3. Please
> provide a narrative confirming that the Baseline model sleeping quarters
>
> have been modeled using System #1, Constant Volume PTAC, with DX
> cooling, and Fossil Fuel boiler. The narrative shall also include size
> of equipment modeled within the Baseline model. Revise Baseline Unitary
> Equipment Cooling and Boiler parameters to match Tables 6.8.1A and
> 6.8.1E of ASHRAE 90.1-2004 and include Proposed Unitary Equipment
> Cooling and size of the boilers. Please revise the Baseline and Proposed
>
> models, and update the Template, and supporting documentation as
> required. Please confirm that the parameters defined in section G3.1.3.2
>
> through G3.1.2.5 have been modeled, and that the mandatory requirements
> of Section 6.4 have been adhered to. Please add sufficient information
> to Table 1.4 to confirm that the Baseline boiler systems were modeled in
>
> accordance with these requirements"
>
> the usgbc cir&  90.1 references:
>
> 1.  USGBC Advanced Energy Modeling for LEED (page 17) - Table 2.2, CIR
> dated 8/26/2008 and 4/23/2008. "Clarifies how to determine baseline HVAC
>
> system(s) for building eligible for more than one system type."
> -"CIR dated 8/26/2008 states that for projects with multiple uses in the
>
> same building, predominant condition as determined by total floor area
> should determine system type for entire building.  Ruling references
> note following Table G3.1.1A in ASHRAE 90.1-2004:  Where attributes make
>
> a building eligible for more than one baseline system type, use the
> predominant condition to determine the system type for the entire
> building."
> -"CIR dated 4/23/2008 confirms that when conditions do not vary per
> exceptions to G3.1.1, project teams must use single baseline system type
>
> for entire building.  HOwever, if project includes multiple detached
> buildings, each building can use different system type; this is
> addressed in Chapter 4 of document."
>
> 2.  90.1-2004 Table G3.1.1A Note 3 - "Where attributes make a building
> eligible for more than one baseline system type, use the predominant
> condition to determine the system type for the entire building."
>
> 3.  90.1-2004 Section G3.1.1 Exception (a) - "Use additional system
> type(s) for non-predominant conditions (i.e. residential/nonresidential
> or heating source) if those conditions apply to more than 20,000 sf of
> conditioned floor area." (Note the fire stations in the two projects
> with the comments above are each less than 14,000 sf of conditioned
> floor area.)
>
> 4.  90.1-2004 User's Manual - "The scope of Standard 90.1, in terms of
> residential spaces, applies just to spaces with four or more stories, so
>
> low-rise residential is excluded."
>
> regards,
> patrick
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