[Equest-users] SD or DD? (John, Nick, and Aaron)
Bruce Easterbrook
bruce5 at bellnet.ca
Wed Jun 16 10:18:49 PDT 2010
Very nice Steven, my building could use some of this. You wouldn't have
the time to do a very rough concept highlight on the creation path would
you? A cad program and maybe some trig on the side would get the major
vertices. I can do a little unpaid learning on my creation off a way point.
Bruce
On 16/06/2010 12:25 PM, Steven Savich wrote:
>
> Bruce,
>
> I think Mitch Dec and the other folks at Glumac have a system worked
> out for generating complex geometries, but it involves some
> proprietary spreadsheets. I've seen some examples they put together
> in a BSUG presentation.
>
> For entertainment value, here's a screenshot of the model I put
> together last year for a building on Natl Historic Register at a small
> university.
>
> Steeply pitched tile perimeter roofs and flat central roofs, the first
> floor is partly below grade with window wells. And yes, generating
> the custom geometry was a pain.
>
> Steven
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Bruce Easterbrook
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 16, 2010 8:15 AM
> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] SD or DD? (John, Nick, and Aaron)
>
> My last effort with a complex geometry turned out pretty good.
> You need to do some work before you get going in eQuest. I only had 3
> floors to do so working off 3 floor plans was enough to keep track of
> the vertices's. You might consider a 3D wire frame in cad is things
> are real complex and run both programs at the same time with the cad
> for reference as you go. I added extra zones to my HVAC zones which
> lined up with exterior walls in the floor above. This makes
> everything removable later, ie the interior roofs which eQuest creates
> in the model. For angled walls I would put them in square lined up at
> the bottom floor, then tilt them over later and shorten the roof plane
> to intersect. Voids are a little more tricky, I also created extra
> zones to line up with the voids. One trick here is to enter the void
> zone last. Put all the other zones around it first. This way all the
> walls are attached to the other zones. The reason is you don't want
> any orphan walls when you delete the void. You basically delete down
> to the floor, exposing the interior roof on the floor below. I had
> planned to leave the concrete floor on top of the roof, a minor thermo
> difference. eQuest I thought does not allow you to delete floor
> areas. Once all the surfaces are gone you can delete the zone and the
> floor area seems to go, the roof will show in the 3D view. Then
> change all the interior walls to exterior on the zones around the
> void. Add an exterior wall in the same spot as the interior wall and
> delete the interior wall. Use the location to place the exterior
> wall, look at the interior wall, get the say, "V2 of the space
> polygon", select that in the exterior wall and eQuest does all the
> geometry, pick you exterior wall type and you are done, delete the
> interior wall.
> Back to the trick. I learned the hard way here. One of my void
> zones ended up with an orphan wall, ie the wall was attached to the
> zone I wanted to delete not the zone which was to have the new
> exterior wall. The surface of one zone is not called the same thing
> on the adjacent zone. Also the geometry control point is different on
> every zone. Every zone _has to be_ a closed surface. You can't
> leave the orphan wall even though it is correct as far as location,
> type etc. It looked perfect in 3D. To eQuest I had 2 zones with
> holes in them and it wouldn't run. It took a lot of playing to make
> an exterior wall in the other zone and get it in the right place.
> Once you get the plane surface orientation right, you "just" adjust
> X,Y to pull it into place. Make sure the azimuth is correct, the
> exterior of the wall has to face the outside. "Just" was over an
> hour. Because there is no wall there originally I don't think eQuest
> has a surface polygon set up in the space to pick, that was my first
> try, just started picking polygons looking for the correct one. It
> didn't seem to exist. If the wall is highlighted in the component
> tree, you are in 3D, just click your left mouse button on the 3D area
> and your wall will show up in red. Having your vertices's on paper
> really helps here because you have to be exact in the placement. To
> add to the complexity, everything is referenced off the control point,
> you have to have it's location too. Long story short, I finally
> copied the opposite wall, flipped the azimuth 180 degrees and pulled
> it into place. Once you change the azimuth everything works
> backwards. It was in the wee hours of the morning, I was not too
> sharp by then. This is an idealized version from foggy memory.
> I added 2 screen shots, 2D, showing the void as eQuest shows it
> after I deleted the zone, and 3D, showing the roof and my fun wall. I
> did all the roofs as flat, there are actually 3 different cottage
> roofs, 2 which intersect, and about another 40% flat roof. Thermo
> wise the flat roof should be conservative, my model will have a little
> more heating and cooling than required but the occupants will be
> happy. A little more is better than not enough. This building
> operates 24/7, some fairly dense occupations in some of the zones, the
> heating and cooling for the outside air dwarfs the roof loads. Put
> the zones back together for the HVAC, interior walls for geometry can
> be made air walls. Sounds simple, lol. Test each shell after you
> make it to make sure the simulation will run, save a copy and do the
> next shell. You can delete the covered roofs once you get the next
> shell on. The first major step is to get the geometry right, default
> everything else. This way you can keep going back into the building
> creation wizard without losing any information or any time. You have
> to do this every time so you can check the 3D view and your wall
> placements. Ignore the warning eQuest gives you because you haven't
> put in anything to lose. Once page 2 of 25 is good, save another copy
> and work on pages 3 to 25. Before you do the windows, save a working
> copy. You can lose a lot of time and information in this area if you
> have to go back. Good luck.
> Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.
> Abode Engineering
>
> On 16/06/2010 02:17 AM, John Aulbach wrote:
>
> Is this one of these 30th century looking skyscrapers being built in
> Shanghai, China? I saw a few renderings and physical models at the San
> francisco airport this week. I have NO idea how to model them..
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Ju-Yeon Julie Shin <juyeon519 at hotmail.com>
> <mailto:juyeon519 at hotmail.com>
> *To:* jra_sac at yahoo.com <mailto:jra_sac at yahoo.com>;
> ncaton at smithboucher.com <mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com>;
> equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
> *Sent:* Tue, June 15, 2010 7:52:54 PM
> *Subject:* RE: [Equest-users] SD or DD? (John, Nick, and Aaron)
>
> Thank you John, Nick, and Aaron for your help.
>
> I have read Bruce's posts on complex geometries.
>
> My building has very complex buildilng geometries with different
> footprints for each floor.
>
> The building has void spaces on few floors and the facades are sloped.
> That is why it has different building footprints.
>
> I am starting from the DD wizard as all you suggested to me. BUT I am
> worried whether these complex geometries give me a nearly accurate result.
>
> Any comments on it?
>
> Thank you again.
>
> Jy-Yeon Julie Shin
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 13:12:07 -0700
> From: jra_sac at yahoo.com <mailto:jra_sac at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] SD or DD?
> To: ncaton at smithboucher.com <mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com>;
> juyeon519 at hotmail.com <mailto:juyeon519 at hotmail.com>;
> equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
>
> Nick (and others):
>
> Thinking it through, 99% of SD stuff is in DD Wizard. DD just allows
> you to make different floor (and/or building) footprints.
>
> So I suppose you could start with a DD Wizard and leave it a single
> footprint, filling in the blanks with contiguous stuff, then making
> the different floor (or building) shells from there.
>
> Wish I had more time to speak. 7 models await my shaky hand.
>
> John
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com>
> <mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com>
> *To:* John Aulbach <jra_sac at yahoo.com> <mailto:jra_sac at yahoo.com>;
> Ju-Yeon Julie Shin <juyeon519 at hotmail.com>
> <mailto:juyeon519 at hotmail.com>; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
> *Sent:* Tue, June 15, 2010 12:38:04 PM
> *Subject:* RE: [Equest-users] SD or DD?
>
> John (or anyone else),
>
> If you have the time, would you mind explaining/suggesting the
> efficiencies that might come from starting with SD, then converting to
> the DD wizards? Every project I’ve ever performed has been DD from
> the get-go, and when I have explored SD it appears to my untrained eye
> to be a kind of linear, simplified version of the DD wizards….
>
> To stick my neck out a bit – I fairly regularly have projects where we
> start modeling at a stage when space zoning assignments and system
> arrangements are quite fluid – it can be handy to define every space
> in the wizard zone maps to allow for full flexibility later on, and
> this often results in building a shell-per-floor, with each floor
> receiving a unique zonal space layout.
>
> I wouldn’t dream of trying this approach on a high-rise building, but
> with projects of up to 3-4 stories, things generally seem manageable.
>
> To Ju-Yeon’s situation (do understand I am one of the less-experienced
> contributors here):
>
> I would emphasize using as few footprints for your 9-story building as
> is acceptable. I would start in the DD wizards, creating a shell for
> each block of floors using the same footprint. I’ve read that you can
> group your hi-rise shells in a way that simplifies things thermally
> without losing accuracy.
>
> For example, if you have three typical floor plans, and they were
> ordered as such: (ground) A,B,A,B,C,C,B,B,B (roof) - I would suggest
> building 3 shells as follows: [A,A],[C,C],[B,B,B,B,B]. In this way,
> you at most need to define only three sets of everything to start, and
> you’re simultaneously ensuring the lowermost and highest floors, which
> receive significantly different envelope loads, have the correct floor
> plan tied to them. Remember the systems you define can ultimately be
> tied to any combination of zones across different shells.
>
> ~Nick
>
> Image removed by sender. cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, E.I.T.*
>
> PROJECT ENGINEER
>
> 25501 west valley parkway
>
> olathe ks 66061
>
> direct 913 344.0036
>
> fax 913 345.0617
>
> /Check out our new web-site @ /www.smithboucher.com_ _
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of
> *John Aulbach
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 15, 2010 1:06 PM
> *To:* Ju-Yeon Julie Shin; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] SD or DD?
>
> Ju-Yeon:
>
> You need to be in the DD Wizard to create different floor footprints.
> The SD Wizard only allows a single footprint.
>
> I would start in the SD Wizard, getting all of your window/wall roof
> constructions, general hours of operation, and system type (s). Not
> knowingwhat your zones will look like, I would set the zoning pattern
> to one zone per floor (for now).
>
> Once this is set up, then change to DD Wizard to start creating your
> unique floors. Then you can uniquely set put your zones on a floor by
> floor basis.
>
> Do you mean EVERY floor footprint is different from the others? This
> is a very unusual building.
>
> John R. Aulbach, PE, CEM
>
> Senior Energy Engineer
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Partner** **Energy*
>
> 1990 E. Grand Avenue, El Segundo, CA 90245
> W: 888-826-1216, X254| D: 310-765-7295 | F: 310-817-2745
>
> www.ptrenergy.com | jaulbach at ptrenergy.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Ju-Yeon Julie Shin <juyeon519 at hotmail.com>
> <mailto:juyeon519 at hotmail.com>
> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
> *Sent:* Tue, June 15, 2010 1:13:13 AM
> *Subject:* [Equest-users] SD or DD?
>
> Hello everyone I am new to eQUEST and have a question about what to use.
>
> The building I am working on has 9 storeys and each single floor
> footprint is different.
>
> The first three floors are part of a podium building and the rest is
> office.
>
> In order to create different footprints and finish all the rest of the
> eQUEST inputs,
>
> 1) do I have to build a first floor on the SD wizard and finish all
> 40ish pages, AND THEN go to the DD wizard
>
> creating new shells for the rest and new HVAC systems, or
>
> 2) do I just go the the SD wizard from the beginning to create all
> different building footprints?
>
> Thank you for your help:)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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