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<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Very nice Steven, my
building could use some of this. You wouldn't have the time to do a
very rough concept highlight on the creation path would you?</font> A
cad program and maybe some trig on the side would get the major
vertices. I can do a little unpaid learning on my creation off a way
point.<br>
Bruce<br>
<br>
On 16/06/2010 12:25 PM, Steven Savich wrote:
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Bruce,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I
think Mitch Dec and the other folks at Glumac have a system
worked out for generating complex geometries, but it involves some
proprietary
spreadsheets. I've seen some examples they put together in a BSUG
presentation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">For
entertainment value, here's a screenshot of the model I put
together last year for a building on Natl Historic Register at a small
university.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img
id="Picture_x0020_17" src="cid:part1.01070803.06070209@bellnet.ca"
height="364" width="649"></span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Steeply
pitched tile perimeter roofs and flat central roofs, the
first floor is partly below grade with window wells. And yes,
generating the
custom geometry was a pain.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Steven<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bruce
Easterbrook<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 16, 2010 8:15 AM<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] SD or DD? (John, Nick, and Aaron)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> My last effort with a complex geometry
turned out pretty good. You need to do some work before you get going
in
eQuest. I only had 3 floors to do so working off 3 floor plans was
enough
to keep track of the vertices's. You might consider a 3D wire frame in
cad is things are real complex and run both programs at the same time
with the
cad for reference as you go. I added extra zones to my HVAC zones
which
lined up with exterior walls in the floor above. This makes everything
removable later, ie the interior roofs which eQuest creates in the
model.
For angled walls I would put them in square lined up at the bottom
floor, then
tilt them over later and shorten the roof plane to intersect. Voids
are a
little more tricky, I also created extra zones to line up with the
voids.
One trick here is to enter the void zone last. Put all the other zones
around it first. This way all the walls are attached to the other
zones.
The reason is you don't want any orphan walls when you delete the
void.
You basically delete down to the floor, exposing the interior roof on
the floor
below. I had planned to leave the concrete floor on top of the roof, a
minor thermo difference. eQuest I thought does not allow you to delete
floor areas. Once all the surfaces are gone you can delete the zone
and
the floor area seems to go, the roof will show in the 3D view. Then
change all the interior walls to exterior on the zones around the
void.
Add an exterior wall in the same spot as the interior wall and delete
the
interior wall. Use the location to place the exterior wall, look at
the
interior wall, get the say, "V2 of the space polygon", select that in
the exterior wall and eQuest does all the geometry, pick you exterior
wall type
and you are done, delete the interior wall.<br>
Back to the trick. I learned the hard way here.
One of my void zones ended up with an orphan wall, ie the wall was
attached to
the zone I wanted to delete not the zone which was to have the new
exterior
wall. The surface of one zone is not called the same thing on the
adjacent zone. Also the geometry control point is different on every
zone. Every zone <u>has to be</u> a closed surface. You can't
leave the orphan wall even though it is correct as far as location,
type
etc. It looked perfect in 3D. To eQuest I had 2 zones with holes in
them and it wouldn't run. It took a lot of playing to make an exterior
wall in the other zone and get it in the right place. Once you get the
plane surface orientation right, you "just" adjust X,Y to pull it
into place. Make sure the azimuth is correct, the exterior of the wall
has to face the outside. "Just" was over an hour. Because
there is no wall there originally I don't think eQuest has a surface
polygon
set up in the space to pick, that was my first try, just started
picking
polygons looking for the correct one. It didn't seem to exist. If
the wall is highlighted in the component tree, you are in 3D, just
click your
left mouse button on the 3D area and your wall will show up in red.
Having your vertices's on paper really helps here because you have to
be exact
in the placement. To add to the complexity, everything is referenced
off
the control point, you have to have it's location too. Long story
short,
I finally copied the opposite wall, flipped the azimuth 180 degrees and
pulled
it into place. Once you change the azimuth everything works
backwards. It was in the wee hours of the morning, I was not too sharp
by
then. This is an idealized version from foggy memory.<br>
I added 2 screen shots, 2D, showing the void as eQuest shows
it after I deleted the zone, and 3D, showing the roof and my fun wall.
I
did all the roofs as flat, there are actually 3 different cottage
roofs, 2
which intersect, and about another 40% flat roof. Thermo wise the flat
roof should be conservative, my model will have a little more heating
and
cooling than required but the occupants will be happy. A little more
is
better than not enough. This building operates 24/7, some fairly dense
occupations in some of the zones, the heating and cooling for the
outside air
dwarfs the roof loads. Put the zones back together for the HVAC,
interior
walls for geometry can be made air walls. Sounds simple, lol. Test
each shell after you make it to make sure the simulation will run, save
a copy
and do the next shell. You can delete the covered roofs once you get
the
next shell on. The first major step is to get the geometry right,
default
everything else. This way you can keep going back into the building
creation wizard without losing any information or any time. You have
to
do this every time so you can check the 3D view and your wall
placements.
Ignore the warning eQuest gives you because you haven't put in anything
to
lose. Once page 2 of 25 is good, save another copy and work on pages 3
to
25. Before you do the windows, save a working copy. You can lose a
lot of time and information in this area if you have to go back. Good
luck.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<br>
<br>
On 16/06/2010 02:17 AM, John Aulbach wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Is this one of these 30th century looking
skyscrapers being
built in Shanghai, China? I saw a few renderings and physical models at
the San
francisco airport this week. I have NO idea how to model them..<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"> Ju-Yeon
Julie Shin <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:juyeon519@hotmail.com"><juyeon519@hotmail.com></a><br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jra_sac@yahoo.com">jra_sac@yahoo.com</a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tue, June 15, 2010 7:52:54 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] SD or DD? (John, Nick, and Aaron)<br>
</span><br>
Thank you John, Nick, and Aaron for your help.<br>
<br>
I have read Bruce's posts on complex geometries.<br>
<br>
My building has very complex buildilng geometries with different
footprints for
each floor.<br>
<br>
The building has void spaces on few floors and the facades are sloped.
That is
why it has different building footprints.<br>
<br>
I am starting from the DD wizard as all you suggested to me. BUT I am
worried
whether these complex geometries give me a nearly accurate result.<br>
<br>
Any comments on it?<br>
<br>
Thank you again.<br>
<br>
Jy-Yeon Julie Shin<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr id="stopSpelling" align="center" size="3" width="100%"></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Date: Tue, 15 Jun
2010 13:12:07
-0700<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jra_sac@yahoo.com">jra_sac@yahoo.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] SD or DD?<br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:juyeon519@hotmail.com">juyeon519@hotmail.com</a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick (and others):<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thinking it through, 99% of SD stuff is in DD
Wizard. DD
just allows you to make different floor (and/or building) footprints.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So I suppose you could start with a DD Wizard
and leave it a
single footprint, filling in the blanks with contiguous stuff, then
making the
different floor (or building) shells from there.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Wish I had more time to speak. 7 models await my
shaky
hand.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">John<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"> Nick
Caton <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com"><ncaton@smithboucher.com></a><br>
<b>To:</b> John Aulbach <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jra_sac@yahoo.com"><jra_sac@yahoo.com></a>;
Ju-Yeon Julie Shin <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:juyeon519@hotmail.com"><juyeon519@hotmail.com></a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tue, June 15, 2010 12:38:04 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] SD or DD?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">John
(or anyone else),</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If
you have the time, would you mind explaining/suggesting the
efficiencies that might come from starting with SD, then converting to
the DD
wizards? Every project I’ve ever performed has been DD from the
get-go,
and when I have explored SD it appears to my untrained eye to be a kind
of linear,
simplified version of the DD wizards….</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">To
stick my neck out a bit – I fairly regularly have projects
where we start modeling at a stage when space zoning assignments and
system
arrangements are quite fluid – it can be handy to define every space in
the
wizard zone maps to allow for full flexibility later on, and this often
results
in building a shell-per-floor, with each floor receiving a unique zonal
space
layout.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I
wouldn’t dream of trying this approach on a high-rise
building, but with projects of up to 3-4 stories, things generally seem
manageable.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">To
Ju-Yeon’s situation (do understand I am one of the
less-experienced contributors here): </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I
would emphasize using as few footprints for your 9-story
building as is acceptable. I would start in the DD wizards, creating a
shell for each block of floors using the same footprint. I’ve read
that
you can group your hi-rise shells in a way that simplifies things
thermally
without losing accuracy. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">For
example, if you have three typical floor plans, and they
were ordered as such: (ground) A,B,A,B,C,C,B,B,B (roof) - I would
suggest building 3 shells as follows: [A,A],[C,C],[B,B,B,B,B]. In
this way, you at most need to define only three sets of everything to
start,
and you’re simultaneously ensuring the lowermost and highest floors,
which
receive significantly different envelope loads, have the correct floor
plan
tied to them. Remember the systems you define can ultimately be tied
to
any combination of zones across different shells.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
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<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Aulbach<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 15, 2010 1:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ju-Yeon Julie Shin; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] SD or DD?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal">Ju-Yeon:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal">You need to be in the DD Wizard to create
different floor
footprints. The SD Wizard only allows a single footprint.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal">I would start in the SD Wizard, getting all
of your
window/wall roof constructions, general hours of operation, and system
type
(s). Not knowingwhat your zones will look like, I would set the
zoning pattern to one zone per floor (for now).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal">Once this is set up, then change to DD Wizard
to start
creating your unique floors. Then you can uniquely set put your zones
on a
floor by floor basis.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal">Do you mean EVERY floor footprint is
different from the
others? This is a very unusual building.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">John
R.
Aulbach, PE, CEM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Senior
Energy
Engineer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
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<p class="ecxmsonormal"><b><span
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style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-variant: small-caps; color: green;">
</span></b><b><span
style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-variant: small-caps; color: rgb(0, 102, 0);">Energy</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">1990
E.
Grand Avenue, El Segundo, CA 90245<br>
W: 888-826-1216, X254| D: 310-765-7295 | F: 310-817-2745</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><span
style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: purple;"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.ptrenergy.com">www.ptrenergy.com</a></span><span
style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">| <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jaulbach@ptrenergy.com">jaulbach@ptrenergy.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"><br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></span></div>
<p class="ecxmsonormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> Ju-Yeon
Julie Shin <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:juyeon519@hotmail.com"><juyeon519@hotmail.com></a><br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tue, June 15, 2010 1:13:13 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] SD or DD?<br>
</span><br>
Hello everyone I am new to eQUEST and have a question about what to use.<br>
<br>
The building I am working on has 9 storeys and each single floor
footprint is
different.<br>
<br>
The first three floors are part of a podium building and the rest is
office.<br>
<br>
In order to create different footprints and finish all the rest of the
eQUEST inputs,<br>
<br>
1) do I have to build a first floor on the SD wizard and finish all
40ish
pages, AND THEN go to the DD wizard <br>
<br>
creating new shells for the rest and new HVAC systems, or<br>
<br>
2) do I just go the the SD wizard from the beginning to create all
different
building footprints?<br>
<br>
Thank you for your help:) <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Equest-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
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href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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