[Equest-users] dd wizard - invalid argument
Bruce Easterbrook
bruce5 at bellnet.ca
Tue Jun 15 00:21:03 PDT 2010
Thanks Pasha, positive feedback is nice. I'm on a roll after a 60 hour
project. Not big, but complex. As it is fresh in my mind I have been
able to share a few new tidbits I have learned off the top of my head.
Unfortunately a few were learned the hard way, again. The
reinitialization about the BDL file seems to be major, to me anyway. It
seems before I was chasing a few phantom errors which I had actually
fixed but didn't realize were fixed. Leading me down a path to never
never land thinking my fix was no good. The current building had
multiple intersecting cottage roofs on top and multiple flat roofs on
lower levels. Didn't even go there, the model has all flat roofs.
Thermo wise it will be close. That is another thing for new users, your
3D model does not have to look like the architects pretty rendering.
eQuest is a thermodynamic idealization. There are limits on how much
your client wants to pay to get to get a good mechanical system. Sorry
architects, but I do find it encouraging some of you are dabbling with
eQuest. Understanding the total project and systems is the key to a
great building and maybe a little more appreciation when your project
lands on my desk, lol. I'm also a Joe Lstiburek fan like Nick. Another
point I would like to make is about reality on the building site. When
the plumbing contractor drops a drain from a toilet that got moved right
where your main supply duct was supposed to go, the sheet metal
contractor uses 4 short 90's to avoid it, worrying about your AHU ESP of
2.55 " WC or 2.6 " WC is crazy. Real life HVAC is not accurate to .01,
except the eQuest geometry. Besides my up to date ASHRAE manuals my
next most valued quick reference is the fifth edition of Fan Engineering
by the Buffalo Forge Company, copyright 1949. There are very few
current HVAC applications not covered in this manual and with a psych
chart (included) and a slide rule you are in the ball park with most of
todays systems at least as far as they actually get installed. Buffalo
Forge was Willis Carrier's first engineering job after graduating from
Cornell (1901), in an "experimental department", the future "father of
the AC industry". I have been in one old building with a cast BF fan
system still running like the day it was installed, and the occupants
still satisfied after 70? years. My point, we have better tools,
computers, eQuest, HAP, Trace, infinitely better control systems and
sensors, hi-efficiency motors, etc, but the basic engineering is many
decades old. We are still re-inventing the wheel with new twists to
deal with the current reality. Calculating to .0001 is still, in
reality, irrelevant in HVAC. The key is to simplify the model so it
reflects the building reality reasonably close, have the model flexible
enough to be able to test different ideas, configurations and use your
computing horsepower to run simulations to test the different
hypotheses. The model is the key, once it is running reliably and
accurately, a new scenario is a dozen or 2 key strokes and a press of
the sim button. The other defining reality is how much your customer
wants to pay for this information, somewhere between as little as
possible and not much, lol.
Time to get some sleep!
Bruce
On 15/06/2010 12:10 AM, Pasha Korber-Gonzalez wrote:
> Bruce-you've been comin' in pretty heavy yourself on this forum and I
> concur with your explanations & comments/advice to Aaron and other new
> users of eQuest. Put very well and sincere. Bruce stated the reality
> of the need for accuracy & efficiency in setting up any energy model.
> After foolishly having faith in my eQuest files' ability to run
> smoothly from start to finish, I have adopted the "Save As" approach
> for all of my project files, and like Bruce stated, "Never get 30
> hours in without testing and running it many times on the path...the
> simulation at this point is for confirmation your model is running and
> [free of errors.]"
> Aaron-you might want to send us your .pd2 & .inp files so we can see
> the error(s) you are experiencing. I think Bruce is on the right
> track that it might be an external surface. Do you have a pitched
> roof on your model?
> Pasha
>
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 7:50 PM, Bruce Easterbrook <bruce5 at bellnet.ca
> <mailto:bruce5 at bellnet.ca>> wrote:
>
> You did have an error in your electric rate but obviously if
> it is not now involved it probably is not the main problem. That
> leaves the roof. If you have several custom floors when you
> create them in the DD wizard they will all have roofs. If they
> are stacked you will have embedded roofs if you have not gone in
> and removed them which you can't do in the DD wizard. They will
> only effect floor to floor heat transfer and maybe eQuest will
> give them a solar load I don't know. eQuest will run with them if
> they are technically (geometrically) correct. The problem is you
> can't see them in the 3D view if they are covered by other floors
> and easy visual check to see if they are geometrically correct is
> not possible. That will cause eQuest to crash. You may be able
> to cheat a little. eQuest will show external surfaces in a red
> outline in the 3D view. If this is may be your problem go to the
> building shell tab to one of the floors and highlight the roof in
> tree pane. Switch to your 3D view and hold your control key and
> with your left mouse held down rotate the 3D model. It will
> switch to wire frame and the roof surface will be highlighted in
> red. I can't remember how to turn on the wire frame view but that
> is possible to do as well. Maybe someone monitoring this will
> refresh my memory. I think you have a roof geometry problem and
> geometry problems are a pain in the ass.
> The other thing I have noticed and I'm not sure quite why but
> if there was an error and you have corrected it, the program may
> have not actually accommodated the change yet. My guess is, the
> program runs in a linear fashion start to finish. A change will
> probably get added to the end of the program as a addition or
> change. When the program is run again it is using the original
> file and then the additions, but the error is still there and the
> program hits it first and crashes. I have found when doing major
> changes it is best just to save the file, close it and re-open
> it. eQuest will then reorder the file and it probably won't crash
> if you did correct the error. Run a simulation and you will get
> much better error messages as to what the problem is. I have
> adjusted my trouble shooting technique to this method in the last
> few weeks and have seen many errors disappear once the file is
> reinitialized. It has saved many hours of banging my head on the
> wall.
> This is not specifically for you Aaron, just a general
> observation (tangent). I have noticed a few guides in the last
> week or so to help new comers but no one has mentioned
> reinitializing the project. It may be an obscure point but I
> think it saved me about 30% of my hours on my latest project. One
> of the biggest things with eQuest is to get it running and keep it
> running as you build your model. Start simple, initially, heat
> transfer surfaces are important, zones are important, windows are
> not, schedules are not, utilities are not, constructions are not,
> layers are not, HVAC systems and their zones are not. Geometry is
> CRITICAL. eQuest will choke with a vertex error of .01, Carol(e)
> is "anal on this point", lol, but she knows what she is talking
> about. She and Pasha both agree and no doubt will add wisdom if
> they have any pointers to add. I should add a plug for Nick as
> well, another heavy hauler on this site with major experience
> beyond his years. Start simple, get the box(es), and surfaces
> correct. Zones initially can be artificial with the future HVAC
> system in mind _but also_ to assist with the geometry.
> Specifically, in dealing with other floors and roofs. An un-named
> eQuest instructor will attest to this, it is easier to manipulate
> your zoning to assist in your geometry problems and put them
> together later to accommodate your HVAC model than create the
> surfaces on the fly in detailed edit. Especially with 40 students
> watching! eQuest can be humbling even for experts. NEVER get 30
> hours in without testing and running it many times on the path.
> Lots of saves, build your files as well as the model. The
> simulation at this point is for confirmation your model is running
> and for error messages. A tiny error in geometry will crash the
> file. There is no point doing anything but the bare minimum until
> the geometry is correct. It will crash your project with minimal
> error messages, maybe none, eQuest will just freeze. Once the
> geometry is correct keep adding to the complexity one step at a
> time, test and confirm, fix errors, save, then the next step. I
> know it sounds plodding, it is. Methodical is a much classier
> word. Efficient is more to the point. I contract so when
> everything blows up I don't get paid. I eat the hours for my
> mistakes. In the end it is all similar, whether it is the boss
> pounding on the door or the client, the deadline has arrived,
> eQuest is not cooperating and you are ready to toss the computer
> out the window, your name is mud. Plodding is smart.
> Sorry for the digression Aaron, the Voodoo thread was
> interesting and I didn't get to add my 2 cents worth. I was in a
> swamp with alligators at the time. On the other hand I did learn
> a lesson about reinitialization. You learn by doing and making
> mistakes.
> Bruce
>
>
> On 14/06/2010 06:43 PM, Dahlstrom, Aaron wrote:
>>
>> Bruce –
>>
>> The error shows up when I attempt to “finish” the DD wizard.
>>
>> When I look through the PD2 file and the INP file in Notepad,
>> neither have any explicit errors in them.
>>
>> The PD2 file does have -
>>
>> 1) RoofZoneErrorCode = 4
>>
>> 2) TOUPeriodErrSeas1 = " "
>>
>> I can get */into /*the wizard just fine, and all the data appears
>> correct. The problem is that when I “finish” the program crashes.
>>
>> I just experimented with removing the TOU electric rate, and
>> again, when I hit “finish” it crashes eQUEST with the error noted
>> below.
>>
>> Thanks for trying!
>>
>> Any other suggestions?
>>
>> *Aaron Dahlstrom , PE, LEED® AP*
>>
>> *In P**o**sse* – A subsidiary of *AKF*| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite
>> 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102
>>
>> d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF:
>> 215-735-7290
>>
>> e: ADahlstrom at in-posse.com <mailto:ADahlstrom at in-posse.com> | in
>> posse web: www.in-posse.com <http://www.in-posse.com/> | akf web:
>> www.akfgroup.com <http://www.akfgroup.com/>
>>
>> *From:* Bruce Easterbrook [mailto:bruce5 at bellnet.ca]
>> *Sent:* Monday, June 14, 2010 5:21 PM
>> *To:* Dahlstrom, Aaron
>> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] dd wizard - invalid argument
>>
>> It depends where you are in the process. If you are getting a
>> detailed sim report it should open to the errors part of the
>> report. If you aren't that far open the project BDL or INP files
>> with notepad. They will list warnings and errors as they are
>> processed. The error will be at the end, there may be
>> contributing errors before. All it really does is tell you where
>> it kicked out, but it does provide clues. When you run your
>> simulation make sure the boxes are checked so it will run through
>> errors and warnings. You get better hints this way.
>> Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.
>> Abode Engineering
>>
>> On 14/06/2010 04:56 PM, Dahlstrom, Aaron wrote:
>>
>> Folks:
>>
>> I have gotten the following error several times on the same project.
>>
>> I have rebuilt the file from scratch already once, and I’m
>> wondering if there is another way to fix this error.
>>
>> Any idea if there are reports or INIs that I can view / modify to
>> find out where exactly this “invalid argument” is located?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> *Aaron Dahlstrom , PE, LEED® AP*
>>
>> *In P**o**sse* – A subsidiary of *AKF*| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite
>> 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102
>>
>> d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF:
>> 215-735-7290
>>
>> e: ADahlstrom at in-posse.com <mailto:ADahlstrom at in-posse.com> | in
>> posse web: www.in-posse.com <http://www.in-posse.com/> | akf web:
>> www.akfgroup.com <http://www.akfgroup.com/>
>>
>>
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