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<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Thanks Pasha, positive
feedback is nice. I'm on a roll after a 60 hour project. Not big, but
complex</font>. As it is fresh in my mind I have been able to share a
few new tidbits I have learned off the top of my head. Unfortunately a
few were learned the hard way, again. The reinitialization about the
BDL file seems to be major, to me anyway. It seems before I was
chasing a few phantom errors which I had actually fixed but didn't
realize were fixed. Leading me down a path to never never land
thinking my fix was no good. The current building had multiple
intersecting cottage roofs on top and multiple flat roofs on lower
levels. Didn't even go there, the model has all flat roofs. Thermo
wise it will be close. That is another thing for new users, your 3D
model does not have to look like the architects pretty rendering.
eQuest is a thermodynamic idealization. There are limits on how much
your client wants to pay to get to get a good mechanical system. Sorry
architects, but I do find it encouraging some of you are dabbling with
eQuest. Understanding the total project and systems is the key to a
great building and maybe a little more appreciation when your project
lands on my desk, lol. I'm also a Joe Lstiburek fan like Nick.
Another point I would like to make is about reality on the building
site. When the plumbing contractor drops a drain from a toilet that
got moved right where your main supply duct was supposed to go, the
sheet metal contractor uses 4 short 90's to avoid it, worrying about
your AHU ESP of 2.55 " WC or 2.6 " WC is crazy. Real life HVAC is not
accurate to .01, except the eQuest geometry. Besides my up to date
ASHRAE manuals my next most valued quick reference is the fifth edition
of Fan Engineering by the Buffalo Forge Company, copyright 1949. There
are very few current HVAC applications not covered in this manual and
with a psych chart (included) and a slide rule you are in the ball park
with most of todays systems at least as far as they actually get
installed. Buffalo Forge was Willis Carrier's first engineering job
after graduating from Cornell (1901), in an "experimental department",
the future "father of the AC industry". I have been in one old
building with a cast BF fan system still running like the day it was
installed, and the occupants still satisfied after 70? years. My
point, we have better tools, computers, eQuest, HAP, Trace, infinitely
better control systems and sensors, hi-efficiency motors, etc, but the
basic engineering is many decades old. We are still re-inventing the
wheel with new twists to deal with the current reality. Calculating to
.0001 is still, in reality, irrelevant in HVAC. The key is to simplify
the model so it reflects the building reality reasonably close, have
the model flexible enough to be able to test different ideas,
configurations and use your computing horsepower to run simulations to
test the different hypotheses. The model is the key, once it is
running reliably and accurately, a new scenario is a dozen or 2 key
strokes and a press of the sim button. The other defining reality is
how much your customer wants to pay for this information, somewhere
between as little as possible and not much, lol.<br>
Time to get some sleep!<br>
Bruce<br>
<br>
<br>
On 15/06/2010 12:10 AM, Pasha Korber-Gonzalez wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:AANLkTimirF1LDTCIfPQmY6AccydZ8jRLuPjF0p98TxUt@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>Bruce-you've been comin' in pretty heavy yourself on this forum
and I concur with your explanations & comments/advice to Aaron and
other new users of eQuest. Put very well and sincere. Bruce stated
the reality of the need for accuracy & efficiency in setting up any
energy model. After foolishly having faith in my eQuest files' ability
to run smoothly from start to finish, I have adopted the "Save As"
approach for all of my project files, and like Bruce stated, "Never get
30 hours in without testing and running it many times on the path...the
simulation at this point is for confirmation your model is running and
[free of errors.]"</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Aaron-you might want to send us your .pd2 & .inp files so we
can see the error(s) you are experiencing. I think Bruce is on the
right track that it might be an external surface. Do you have a
pitched roof on your model?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Pasha<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 7:50 PM, Bruce
Easterbrook <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca">bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"
class="gmail_quote">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"> You did have an error in your
electric rate but obviously if it is not now involved it probably is
not the main problem. That leaves the roof. If you have several
custom floors when you create them in the DD wizard they will all have
roofs. If they are stacked you will have embedded roofs if</font> you
have not gone in and removed them which you can't do in the DD wizard.
They will only effect floor to floor heat transfer and maybe eQuest
will give them a solar load I don't know. eQuest will run with them if
they are technically (geometrically) correct. The problem is you can't
see them in the 3D view if they are covered by other floors and easy
visual check to see if they are geometrically correct is not possible.
That will cause eQuest to crash. You may be able to cheat a little.
eQuest will show external surfaces in a red outline in the 3D view. If
this is may be your problem go to the building shell tab to one of the
floors and highlight the roof in tree pane. Switch to your 3D view and
hold your control key and with your left mouse held down rotate the 3D
model. It will switch to wire frame and the roof surface will be
highlighted in red. I can't remember how to turn on the wire frame
view but that is possible to do as well. Maybe someone monitoring this
will refresh my memory. I think you have a roof geometry problem and
geometry problems are a pain in the ass.<br>
The other thing I have noticed and I'm not sure quite why but if
there was an error and you have corrected it, the program may have not
actually accommodated the change yet. My guess is, the program runs in
a linear fashion start to finish. A change will probably get added to
the end of the program as a addition or change. When the program is
run again it is using the original file and then the additions, but the
error is still there and the program hits it first and crashes. I have
found when doing major changes it is best just to save the file, close
it and re-open it. eQuest will then reorder the file and it probably
won't crash if you did correct the error. Run a simulation and you
will get much better error messages as to what the problem is. I have
adjusted my trouble shooting technique to this method in the last few
weeks and have seen many errors disappear once the file is
reinitialized. It has saved many hours of banging my head on the wall.<br>
This is not specifically for you Aaron, just a general observation
(tangent). I have noticed a few guides in the last week or so to help
new comers but no one has mentioned reinitializing the project. It may
be an obscure point but I think it saved me about 30% of my hours on my
latest project. One of the biggest things with eQuest is to get it
running and keep it running as you build your model. Start simple,
initially, heat transfer surfaces are important, zones are important,
windows are not, schedules are not, utilities are not, constructions
are not, layers are not, HVAC systems and their zones are not.
Geometry is CRITICAL. eQuest will choke with a vertex error of .01,
Carol(e) is "anal on this point", lol, but she knows what she is
talking about. She and Pasha both agree and no doubt will add wisdom
if they have any pointers to add. I should add a plug for Nick as
well, another heavy hauler on this site with major experience beyond
his years. Start simple, get the box(es), and surfaces correct. Zones
initially can be artificial with the future HVAC system in mind <u>but
also</u> to assist with the geometry. Specifically, in dealing with
other floors and roofs. An un-named eQuest instructor will attest to
this, it is easier to manipulate your zoning to assist in your geometry
problems and put them together later to accommodate your HVAC model
than create the surfaces on the fly in detailed edit. Especially with
40 students watching! eQuest can be humbling even for experts. NEVER
get 30 hours in without testing and running it many times on the path.
Lots of saves, build your files as well as the model. The simulation
at this point is for confirmation your model is running and for error
messages. A tiny error in geometry will crash the file. There is no
point doing anything but the bare minimum until the geometry is
correct. It will crash your project with minimal error messages, maybe
none, eQuest will just freeze. Once the geometry is correct keep
adding to the complexity one step at a time, test and confirm, fix
errors, save, then the next step. I know it sounds plodding, it is.
Methodical is a much classier word. Efficient is more to the point. I
contract so when everything blows up I don't get paid. I eat the hours
for my mistakes. In the end it is all similar, whether it is the boss
pounding on the door or the client, the deadline has arrived, eQuest is
not cooperating and you are ready to toss the computer out the window,
your name is mud. Plodding is smart.<br>
Sorry for the digression Aaron, the Voodoo thread was interesting
and I didn't get to add my 2 cents worth. I was in a swamp with
alligators at the time. On the other hand I did learn a lesson about
reinitialization. You learn by doing and making mistakes. <br>
<font color="#888888">Bruce</font>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 14/06/2010 06:43 PM, Dahlstrom, Aaron wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;">Bruce – </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;">The error shows up when I
attempt to “finish” the DD wizard.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;">When I look through the
PD2 file and the INP file in Notepad, neither have any explicit errors
in them.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;">The PD2 file does have -</span></p>
<p><span style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;"><span>1)<span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; -x-system-font: none; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
</span></span></span><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;">RoofZoneErrorCode = 4</span></p>
<p><span style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;"><span>2)<span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; -x-system-font: none; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
</span></span></span><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;">TOUPeriodErrSeas1 = " "</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;">I can get <b><i>into </i></b>the
wizard just fine, and all the data appears correct. The problem is that
when I “finish” the program crashes.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;">I just experimented with
removing the TOU electric rate, and again, when I hit “finish” it
crashes eQUEST with the error noted below.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;">Thanks for trying!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;">Any other suggestions?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<div>
<p style="line-height: 150%;" class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="line-height: 150%; color: gray; font-size: 9pt;">Aaron
Dahlstrom , PE, LEED® AP</span></b><span style="color: windowtext;"></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 150%;" class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="color: rgb(23, 54, 93);">In P</span></b><b><span
style="color: rgb(97, 148, 40);">o</span></b><b><span
style="color: rgb(23, 54, 93);">sse</span></b><span
style="line-height: 150%; color: gray; font-size: 9pt;"> – </span><span
style="line-height: 150%; color: gray; font-size: 8pt;">A subsidiary of</span><span
style="line-height: 150%; color: gray; font-size: 9pt;"> </span><b><span
style="line-height: 150%; color: rgb(204, 0, 0); font-size: 9pt;">AKF</span></b><span
style="line-height: 150%; color: gray; font-size: 9pt;">| 1500 Walnut
Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102 </span><span
style="color: windowtext;"></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 150%;" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="line-height: 150%; color: gray; font-size: 9pt;">d:
215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF: 215-735-7290</span><span
style="color: windowtext;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: gray; font-size: 9pt;">e:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ADahlstrom@in-posse.com"
target="_blank">ADahlstrom@in-posse.com</a> | in posse web: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.in-posse.com/" target="_blank">www.in-posse.com</a>
| akf web: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.akfgroup.com/"
target="_blank">www.akfgroup.com</a></span><span
style="color: windowtext;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: gray; font-size: 9pt;"> </span><span
style="color: windowtext;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: gray; font-size: 9pt;"> </span><span
style="color: windowtext;"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif'; color: gray; font-size: 9pt;"> </span><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 12pt;"></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span
style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt;"> Bruce Easterbrook [<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca" target="_blank">mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 14, 2010 5:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dahlstrom, Aaron<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] dd wizard - invalid argument</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It depends where you are in the process. If
you are getting a detailed sim report it should open to the errors part
of the report. If you aren't that far open the project BDL or INP
files with notepad. They will list warnings and errors as they are
processed. The error will be at the end, there may be contributing
errors before. All it really does is tell you where it kicked out, but
it does provide clues. When you run your simulation make sure the
boxes are checked so it will run through errors and warnings. You get
better hints this way.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<br>
<br>
On 14/06/2010 04:56 PM, Dahlstrom, Aaron wrote: </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Folks:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I have gotten
the following error several times on the same project.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I have
rebuilt the file from scratch already once, and I’m wondering if there
is another way to fix this error.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Any idea if
there are reports or INIs that I can view / modify to find out where
exactly this “invalid argument” is located?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><img
src="cid:part1.08090201.09030405@bellnet.ca" border="0" height="159"
width="313"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Thanks!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="line-height: 150%;" class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="line-height: 150%; color: gray; font-size: 9pt;">Aaron
Dahlstrom , PE, LEED® AP</span></b></p>
<p style="line-height: 150%;" class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="color: rgb(23, 54, 93);">In P</span></b><b><span
style="color: rgb(97, 148, 40);">o</span></b><b><span
style="color: rgb(23, 54, 93);">sse</span></b><span
style="line-height: 150%; color: gray; font-size: 9pt;"> – </span><span
style="line-height: 150%; color: gray; font-size: 8pt;">A subsidiary of</span><span
style="line-height: 150%; color: gray; font-size: 9pt;"> </span><b><span
style="line-height: 150%; color: rgb(204, 0, 0); font-size: 9pt;">AKF</span></b><span
style="line-height: 150%; color: gray; font-size: 9pt;">| 1500 Walnut
Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102 </span></p>
<p style="line-height: 150%;" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="line-height: 150%; color: gray; font-size: 9pt;">d:
215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF: 215-735-7290</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: gray; font-size: 9pt;">e:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ADahlstrom@in-posse.com"
target="_blank">ADahlstrom@in-posse.com</a> | in posse web: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.in-posse.com/" target="_blank">www.in-posse.com</a>
| akf web: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.akfgroup.com/"
target="_blank">www.akfgroup.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: gray; font-size: 9pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: gray; font-size: 9pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif'; color: gray; font-size: 9pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif'; font-size: 12pt;"><br
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