[Bldg-sim] [Equest-users] Should onebuilding.org mailing lists transition to Discourse?

Fri Dec 11 00:47:01 PST 2020

I was personally involved with that “wiki” effort, and I am glad you reminded me Anthony.  “Lessons learned” with that experience may be helpful to collect for Jason while considering options for this transition, if anyone else has any memories from that experiment.

I recall (years later, mind) that the wiki was not intended to replace, but rather to augment/supplement the mailing lists.  The function of the wiki was to create a better place to archive/publish specific sorts of threads/content involving lots of imagery.  Icing on the cake would have been the capability to allow for collaborative contributions/editing/cross-linking/tagging, so that these articles/guides could benefit from many perspectives and grow to become a more useful/accessible archive of information over time.

At that time, I was a little more active in generating step by step guides (that I would later reference and re-send into the lists as topics resurfaced) with lots of deliberate text formatting (color, indents, bullets, etc.) & imagery to help others pick up on a procedure or process/feature.  A shortcoming of the mailing list archives (then and now) is that text formatting typically ends up totally stripped, and images would be un-inserted and retained (if at all) as a series of cryptically named attachments instead of in-line with the text, as originally composed.  The wiki looked like a worthy experiment to circumvent that set of archival issues, and better capture that sort of material for easier access and retention.

The wiki effort kinda fizzled in large part (I think) because a wiki-based platform requires of the target audience/community: (1) a small but meaningful increase in effort/time to access/search for information, relative to the fully automated mailing list option that brings the content to you, and (2) for contributors, a LOT more time/effort (relative to emails) to contribute and deal with formatting/tagging/etc.  A minor contributing factor may have also been “contributor fragmentation” as around the same time period IBPSA was trying to launch a wiki effort with similar goals (I do not recall exactly what extent these efforts overlapped on a timeline).  Either initiative might have seen a lot more immediate growth/success all the involved contributing parties were consolidated into one effort.

I think a wiki may remain an ideal format for something like the doe-2 reference/engineering manual, or similar large bodies of relatively static work that could benefit from infrequent & disparate (but peer-reviewed) edits/additions from time to time.

As it stands, we can all recognize active contribution/participation on the mailings lists remains a high hurdle for the community at large.  I think the main hurdles preventing more active contribution from the community include:

  *   Participation takes time/effort out of the day.  It’s hard for most with jobs including energy simulation to justify fitting something like emailing strangers a priority.  A new platform should place ease of accessibility (reading and contributions) as a penultimate priority.  Access to read/contribute/search should ideally require a few clicks as possible.
  *   Ego – I think a lot of engineers suffer a mental hurdle in asking questions or responding in a public forum.  It’s a tall order in some work environments/cultures to open up and admit “I don’t know something,” especially in a public forum where your admission ends up “on the record.”  As a younger engineer especially I would get really hung up on this, until I figured out the people asking the most questions were often the smartest ones in the room.  A new platform might pick up a few more questions, especially from new and intermediate modelers, if it’s easy to submit queries in an anonymous fashion?
  *   Propriety – It can be hard to ask a question sometimes (and especially attach a model) when the nature of the post/question can result in a clear line of identification to an active project, customer, or company.  The same concerns can make it difficult to share a working example/solution when you see someone ask for something at your fingertips.  We all want to be good stewards of potentially sensitive information.  It would be neat if a new platform could offer solutions to make it easier to ask questions anonymously, perhaps someday including scripts and/or guides to “anonymize” project files to make it easier to upload with confidence.

~Nick

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Nick Caton, P.E. (US), BEMP
ニック ケートン, P.E. (US), BEMP
Senior Energy Engineer
Energy Manager, Yokota Airbase
ESS - Energy & Sustainability Services
M JP
M US
Email
+81 . 070 . 3366 . 3317
+1   . 785 .  410  . 3317
nicholas.caton at se.com<mailto:nicholas.caton at se.com>
シニアエネルギーエンジニア
横田基地エネルギーマネージャー
ESS - エナジー持続可能性サービス

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From: Equest-users <equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> On Behalf Of Anthony Hardman via Equest-users
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2020 3:58 AM
To: Jason Glazer <jglazer at gard.com>; bldg-sim at onebuilding.org; equest-users at onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Should onebuilding.org mailing lists transition to Discourse?

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

________________________________

I love the idea of transitioning to a more modern platform.  I like the job board idea Nick mentioned.  Search & attachment functionality is a big deal and I would also hope that the archives could get transferred, but even if they can’t, I wouldn’t consider it a reason to stick with status quo.  I’ve found the existing search functionality to be clunky at best as I often can’t find threads that I know to exist, which has forced me to save the ones I deem important directly to my own outlook (not ideal).

I recall an energy simulation “wiki” idea gaining some traction years ago which I think is less preferable than a modern forum.  If we’re comparing resources, I think unmethours has the best platform and functionality from a user perspective, followed by energy-models.com.

Having said all that, I also love the community here and am tremendously grateful for all the work and effort behind the onebuilding lists.

Anthony Hardman, PE, BEAP, LEED AP BD+C
Senior Building Performance Analyst, Owner
The Green Engineer
Sustainable Design Consulting
23 Bradford Street, 1st Floor, Concord, MA 01742
Direct: 978.341.5459  |  Office: 978.369.8978
E: anthony at greenengineer.com<mailto:anthony at greenengineer.com>

From: Jason Glazer [mailto:jglazer at gard.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 11:45 AM
To: bldg-sim at onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at onebuilding.org>; equest-users at onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Equest-users] Should onebuilding.org mailing lists transition to Discourse?

BLDG-SIM and eQUEST-users

Sorry for the cross posting but this is a "meta" issue that I would like feedback on.

As you may know, I've been running the BLDG-SIM for over 20 years and eQUEST-users for 12 years as well as other mailing lists on onebuilding.org<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fonebuilding.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40se.com%7C3df4e8473f8144e9645c08d89c7470f7%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637431371211426155%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=T4LS7EghlkpHlzQIZacTxOKS3an3FRVL2ibk%2FHypSxE%3D&reserved=0>. While the number of modelers has greatly increased over the years, the community that participates in these mailing lists has not. I believe part of that reason is that mailing lists are not very attractive to younger modelers. I would like to revitalize the sense of community that I have always seen in modelers by changing BLDG-SIM and eQUEST-users as well as some of the other onebuilding.org mailing lists to a web and phone enabled forum called Discourse:

https://www.discourse.org/<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40se.com%7C3df4e8473f8144e9645c08d89c7470f7%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637431371211426155%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=eiMEXNPcHIEFWOST5Fzb3col5j0A2CxNuAUEXJbMHEU%3D&reserved=0>

One nice thing about this type of forum is that for those used to a mailing list, they can continue interacting just like a mailing list but those more comfortable using a web-based or phone-based forum can participate also.
Example of the web/phone interface can be seen at:

   https://meta.discourse.org/<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.discourse.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40se.com%7C3df4e8473f8144e9645c08d89c7470f7%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637431371211436148%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=7pbHm1KOw5O465pweAkN98QvWLK0a7GCfp43cTau5Bw%3D&reserved=0>

   https://forum.golangbridge.org/<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.golangbridge.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40se.com%7C3df4e8473f8144e9645c08d89c7470f7%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637431371211436148%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=oPNcP%2BRB65FIY19V8hpOzyr33Ng%2BEC%2FG%2BHHD8j8%2FRhA%3D&reserved=0>

   https://discourse.julialang.org/<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdiscourse.julialang.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40se.com%7C3df4e8473f8144e9645c08d89c7470f7%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637431371211446143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=YTWwiGZysUYJizTKdjnnN4i3L%2FcBZWZ0Jv70Ro2HP3E%3D&reserved=0>

   https://discuss.atom.io/<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdiscuss.atom.io%2F&data=04%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40se.com%7C3df4e8473f8144e9645c08d89c7470f7%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637431371211456139%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=R4FsgIGG57S5wNLE177bZgxTfk%2Fh8ItQb1yi1RzTbjk%3D&reserved=0>

I'm thinking it would be a single Discourse forum but with categories that correspond to the existing mailing lists and perhaps some other categories. It would probably live at:

    forum.onebuilding.org

or something like that.

The reason I'm bringing this up today is that I also help manage the energyplus_support list hosted on Yahoo and on December 15, Yahoo is going to shut down all of its mailing lists and one of the transition options would be the same Discourse forum.

I know that unmethours.com has become a valuable resource to the community for questions and answers but I believe that a forum for discussion and announcements will continue to be important. Announcements for jobs, training, events, etc.. as well as discussion that does not fit in the question and answer format continue to occur.

Please let me know what you think and if you think that BLDG-SIM and eQUEST-users as well as the other public mailing lists on onebuilding.org should transition to a Discourse forum.

Thanks

Jason

--

Jason Glazer, P.E., BEMP, GARD Analytics, 90.1 ECB chair

Admin for onebuilding.org building performance mailing lists

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