[Bldg-sim] 90.1-2010 Section 11 question

Julien Marrec julien.marrec at gmail.com
Mon Mar 25 07:50:33 PDT 2019


Oops, That's what I get from reading too quickly on a mobile device, I
didn't register that you were talking about Section 11 and not App G (It's
also part of why I had replied to you privately and not including the whole
list).

I'm not all that familiar with Section 11, so don't quote me on this, but
from a very cursory look, perhaps you can go with System 6: an electric
Water source heat pump with the *same* backup boilers as in the proposed?
I'm having trouble finding another way of trying to satisfy both 11.3.2A
(g) and 11.3.2.(j).(2)...


--
Julien Marrec, EBCP, BPI MFBA
Owner at EffiBEM <http://www.effibem.com>
T: +33 6 95 14 42 13

LinkedIn (en <https://www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec>) *| *(fr
<https://fr.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec/fr>) :
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec>


Le lun. 25 mars 2019 à 15:25, Jones, Christopher <
Christopher.r.Jones at wsp.com> a écrit :

> Julien,
>
> I believe you are referring to Appendix G. The PNNL document addresses
> Appendix G situations. In this case, I am modeling to Section 11:
>
>
>
> 2. Select the path that corresponds to the proposed
>
> building design heat source: electric resistance, heat
>
> pump (including air-source and water-source), or
>
> fuel-fired. Systems utilizing district heating (steam or
>
> hot water) shall be treated as if the heating system
>
> type were “Fossil Fuel.” Systems with no heating
>
> capability shall be treated as if the heating system
>
> type were “Fossil Fuel.” For systems with mixed fuel
>
> heating sources, the system or systems that use the
>
> secondary heating source type (the one with the
>
> smallest total installed output capacity for the spaces
>
> served by the system) shall be modeled identically in
>
> the budget building design and the primary heating
>
> source type shall be used in Figure 11.3.2 to deter-
>
> mine budget system type.
>
>
>
> In my case, all systems receive heat from both the heat recovered from
> chillers and from natural gas boilers. It makes it difficult say some
> systems are electric and some are gas.
>
>
>
> Also, is heat from a heat recovery chiller the same as a “heat pump”? In
> other words, should the baseline be a water source heat pump with natural
> gas boiler? That may be the closest fit?
>
>
>
>
>
> *Christopher R Jones, P.Eng.*
>
> T+ 1 416-644-0252
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Julien Marrec [mailto:julien.marrec at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, March 22, 2019 3:07 PM
> *To:* Jones, Christopher <Christopher.r.Jones at wsp.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] 90.1-2010 Section 11 question
>
>
>
> If you interpret ashrae 2010 to the letter, you have a mixed fuel system,
> in which case I'm afraid you have to model a non electric system in the
> baseline. This is something I often saw when you have VRF+ gas DOAS in
> residential buildings. Some programs may overrule this by explicitly saying
> that you should model an electric system in the baseline, but otherwise my
> interpretation is that you do have to model a non electric one. Do double
> check as I may be rusty here, there is a PNNL paper that deals with ashrae
> 2010 baselines that would be particularly interesting (can't link directly
> as I'm on my phone sorry)
>
> --
>
> Sent from a mobile device, please excuse the brevity.
>
> Julien Marrec, EBCP, BPI MFBA
>
> Owner
>
> Direct: +33 6 95 14 42 13
>
> Website: www.effibem.com
>
> LinkedIn (en <https://www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec>) | (fr
> <https://fr.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec/fr>)
>
> On Mar 22, 2019, at 18:44, "Jones, Christopher via Bldg-sim" <
> bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org> wrote:
>
> Apologies for cross posting.
>
>
>
> I am modeling the baseline according to 90.1-2010 Section 11. The proposed
> design uses heat recovery chillers with boilers to pick up what the heating
> loads HR chiller isn’t able to meet. In this case, would the heating
> classification be Heat Pump? The HR chillers meet the majority of heating
> loads. 11.3.2.(j).(2) indicates that the systems served by the secondary
> heating source type are to be modeled the same in the baseline. In my case
> I can’t really separate the systems as all systems use heating provided by
> both the HR Chillers and the boiler plant.
>
>
>
> Any idea how the baseline plant and systems should be modelled? Water
> source heat pumps (System 6) may be appropriate but I would have to add a
> DOAS.
>
>
>
> At the moment, the baseline model has System 2 (VAV with boiler and
> chiller) but this leads to much lower electricity consumption in the
> baseline. The purpose of the modeling is for an incentive based on
> electricity savings – either kWh or kW which ever gives the best incentive.
> I do have peak kW savings but it would be much better if the baseline had
> electric heating of some kind along with the gas heating.
>
>
>
> Any insights appreciated.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Christopher R. Jones*, P.Eng.
>
> Senior Building Performance Specialist
>
> Sustainability & Energy
>
>
>
> T+ 1 416-644-0252
>
>
>
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4 Canada
>
> wsp.com
>
>
>
>
>
> *Please consider the environment before printing...*
>
>
>
>
>
>
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