<div dir="ltr"><div></div><div>Oops, That's what I get from reading too quickly on a mobile device, I didn't register that you were talking about Section 11 and not App G (It's also part of why I had replied to you privately and not including the whole list).<br></div><div><br></div><div>I'm not all that familiar with Section 11, so don't quote me on this, but from a very cursory look, perhaps you can go with System 6: an electric Water source heat pump with the <u>same</u> backup boilers as in the proposed? I'm having trouble finding another way of trying to satisfy both 11.3.2A (g) and 11.3.2.(j).(2)...</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div></div><div><div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>--<br>Julien Marrec, EBCP, BPI MFBA<br>Owner at <a href="http://www.effibem.com" target="_blank">EffiBEM</a><br>T: +33 6 95 14 42 13<br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">LinkedIn (<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec" target="_blank">en</a>)<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <i>| </i></span>(<a href="https://fr.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec/fr" target="_blank">fr</a>) : </span><br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec" target="_blank"></a></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le lun. 25 mars 2019 à 15:25, Jones, Christopher <<a href="mailto:Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com">Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com</a>> a écrit :<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Julien,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I believe you are referring to Appendix G. The PNNL document addresses Appendix G situations. In this case, I am modeling to Section 11:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">2. Select the path that corresponds to the proposed<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">building design heat source: electric resistance, heat<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">pump (including air-source and water-source), or<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">fuel-fired. Systems utilizing district heating (steam or<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">hot water) shall be treated as if the heating system<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">type were “Fossil Fuel.” Systems with no heating<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">capability shall be treated as if the heating system<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">type were “Fossil Fuel.” For systems with mixed fuel<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">heating sources, the system or systems that use the<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">secondary heating source type (the one with the<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">smallest total installed output capacity for the spaces<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">served by the system) shall be modeled identically in<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">the budget building design and the primary heating<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">source type shall be used in Figure 11.3.2 to deter-<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">mine budget system type.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In my case, all systems receive heat from both the heat recovered from chillers and from natural gas boilers. It makes it difficult say some systems are electric and some are gas.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Also, is heat from a heat recovery chiller the same as a “heat pump”? In other words, should the baseline be a water source heat pump with natural gas boiler? That may be the closest fit?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Christopher R Jones, P.Eng.<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">T+ 1 416-644-0252<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img style="width: 0.625in; height: 0.302in;" id="gmail-m_5371784697842270704_x0000_i1029" src="cid:169b540bf2f692e331" width="60" height="29"><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Julien Marrec [mailto:<a href="mailto:julien.marrec@gmail.com" target="_blank">julien.marrec@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 22, 2019 3:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jones, Christopher <<a href="mailto:Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com" target="_blank">Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] 90.1-2010 Section 11 question<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">If you interpret ashrae 2010 to the letter, you have a mixed fuel system, in which case I'm afraid you have to model a non electric system in the baseline. This is something I often saw when you have VRF+ gas
DOAS in residential buildings. Some programs may overrule this by explicitly saying that you should model an electric system in the baseline, but otherwise my interpretation is that you do have to model a non electric one. Do double check as I may be rusty
here, there is a PNNL paper that deals with ashrae 2010 baselines that would be particularly interesting (can't link directly as I'm on my phone sorry)<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">--<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Sent from a mobile device, please excuse the brevity.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Julien Marrec, EBCP, BPI MFBA<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Owner<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><img style="width: 0.5833in; height: 0.1979in;" id="gmail-m_5371784697842270704_x0000_i1025" src="cid:169b540bf307745b42" width="56" height="19"><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Direct: +33 6 95 14 42 13<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Website: <a href="http://www.effibem.com" target="_blank">www.effibem.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">LinkedIn (<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec" target="_blank">en</a>) | (<a href="https://fr.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec/fr" target="_blank">fr</a>)<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mar 22, 2019, at 18:44, "Jones, Christopher via Bldg-sim" <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Apologies for cross posting.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am modeling the baseline according to 90.1-2010 Section 11. The proposed design uses heat recovery chillers with boilers to pick up what the heating loads HR chiller isn’t able to meet. In this case, would the heating classification be
Heat Pump? The HR chillers meet the majority of heating loads. 11.3.2.(j).(2) indicates that the systems served by the secondary heating source type are to be modeled the same in the baseline. In my case I can’t really separate the systems as all systems use
heating provided by both the HR Chillers and the boiler plant. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Any idea how the baseline plant and systems should be modelled? Water source heat pumps (System 6) may be appropriate but I would have to add a DOAS.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">At the moment, the baseline model has System 2 (VAV with boiler and chiller) but this leads to much lower electricity consumption in the baseline. The purpose of the modeling is for an incentive based on electricity savings – either kWh
or kW which ever gives the best incentive. I do have peak kW savings but it would be much better if the baseline had electric heating of some kind along with the gas heating.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Any insights appreciated.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p><b> </b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" lang="EN-GB">Christopher R. Jones</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" lang="EN-GB">, P.Eng.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" lang="EN-GB">Senior Building Performance Specialist</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" lang="EN-GB">Sustainability & Energy</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img style="width: 0.625in; height: 0.302in;" id="gmail-m_5371784697842270704_x0031_cc2331b-d8c3-424e-81de-2b17716d444e.png_x003f_ver_x003d_1495657656000" width="60" height="29" border="0"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">T+ 1 416-644-0252</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a href="http://wsp.com" target="_blank">wsp.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(110,169,0)">Please consider the environment before printing...</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
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